Last year multiple tickets were purchased for each division hosted out of an eastside bar, this bar owner was placed under the impression by the rules of the lottery that any bar within a division purchasing tickets for that division would be considered FIRST before a division playoff would be sent to a bar outside of its division. This particular bar which hosted 4 count them 1,2,3,4 teams who will no longer belong to the CDC within this bar, did not receive not one playoff of any of multiple divisions (with multiple boards on his wall) which tickets were purchased for.

This from my E-mail I expect is the same rule?

If I am wrong and a division should expect the possibility to play outside of its division even though tickets are purchased within the division than this needs to be addressed NOW! I will not support this lottery practice and strongly encourage no-one else to either. This practice and other situations have ruined the reputation of the CDC and darts in general on the EASTSIDE where darters used to make up a considerable amount of membership, greater than the whole right now.

Someone please elaborate on what shall be expected.

Dennis,
My understanding, based on prior years (and if there is a BOD who has another understanding of how it works, please post), is if for example, you are in Tuesday East 4 and "Eastside Tavern" purchases 2 tickets and another bar in the same division purchases 2 tickets for the lottery for round 1, and those are the only bars in your division that purchase tickets, 1 ticket of those 4 would be pulled to determine which location would host Tuesday East 4 first round playoffs. Now, if no bar in that division should purchase tickets, after each of the other rounds is pulled, all loser tickets would be placed in a hat to determine who would host the Tuesday Round 1 playoffs for TEast 4. So, if for example, 1 bar from Tuesday Gold 1 and 2 bars from Tuesday Gold 2 and 1 bar from Tuesday Gold 3 and 2 bars from Tuesday Gold 5 all purchase tickets, but do not meet their maximum, all those tickets would be placed in a hat for hosting Tuesday Gold 4. The only time you would play at a bar that is not within your division is if not ONE BAR within your division purchases one ticket for the playoffs. Now, if a bar sponsors multiple teams within multiple divisions, there is always the possiblity that they met the quota at the higher level and do not have enough boards to host multiple divisions on the same night. If that were to occur, then another bar would be pulled to host the next division for that night. Hope this makes sense. If not, let me know.
Rose

Yes Rose it makes sense to me, thanks for the response.

Now I know others are responsible this year, but a bar in my division purchased tickets last year for my division plus others and didnt recieve ANY playoffs for ANY division while our division traveled to the westside, this created some serious waves with the bar owner and his teams which are now unrepairable. I just want to be assured before I go around telling the bars to purchase tickets that this wont happen again.

I have spoke per phone conversation with Jon London about his plan of procedure for the lottery and feel confident with his response that if he remains involved that the lottery will be conducted fairly.

I am still not a fan of a lottery system but now that there is no bar fee maybe the investment in lottery tickets will be worth the while for the bars.

Do you have a better idea or system that might benefit all involved, Dennis? Please elaborate.
Jon
cool: cool: bliss: bliss: bam:

I am just not a fan of the lottery Jon, I am not suggesting it be changed only that the rules be clear and adhered to.

"Don't screw us this year" OR, "Make sure we win this year"?
Both of which strongly imply a "fix" - or request for one. <_<

Regarding what the person in the place surrounded by alcohol told you:

Here are the 2006 Winter Tournaments Lottery Rules, still available for all to see. Published in Standings each year, and mailed to each bar owner along with some tickets.

Please refer to the rules and apprise me/us of just how this person was "placed under the impression" of what you state. Shouldn't take very long - it's either Rule 2 or Rule 3. There's not many words there, and I don't see anything like what you have described him being under the influence/impression of. :D
Next.

You say the Impressionable Owner purchased many tickets and did not win.
Well, let's look at the Ticket's Purchased Audit which is still available online.

If you scroll down the Tuesday sales, you'll see the number of tix purchased by each bar, for each division, with the East Side Tuesday divisions at bottom.

If you look at the Lottery Winners, which unfortunately does not appear to be online anymore but I'll paste it in at bottom - sorry for the unformatted mess! - you'll see the that except for one East Side division, an East Side bar hosted each playoff.

And now for "my side of the story" - who was not surrounded by alcohol then, or now (unfortunately!).
Both Dave (let's call your guy "Dave" since it's a good name and all) and the Slam Jams Owner showed up on the same day. The Slam Jams owner, along with one other very saavy barowner, watched the lottery sales closely every year. The sales were published each week - on Standings and on the Webski.
Those two guys would come in and buy at least one ticket for each division with no [ZERO] (0) tickets sold on one of the last days before the drawing.

Those owners served a few good purposes. They helped to ensure against overcrowding, as the goal to sell at least one ticket per division helps. They increased the prize pool with more sales revenue. They lowered the odds of winning automatically (with more ticket sales) and gave the lottery more credibility. Yes, credibility.

What they won, they won fair & square. As the audit will bear out - year after year after year.

Back to that last day: I don't recall specifically if Dave bought his East side tix before or after Slam Jams did their annual "Buyathon". But logic dictates that Dave bought AFTER Slam Jams - as Slam Jams would NOT have bought a ticket for an Eastside bar if at least one ticket had already been purchased. And even if Slams did (which I would bet against), there is nothing in The Rules to either prohibit him or give him or anyone else "the impression" that he was prohibited from doing so. <_<

Here's the Winners list - I'll continue afterward and address your grievance.

Monday Gold 1 & 2 Fraternal Order Of Orioles, 3349 W.117th, Cleveland PH: 216-941-9263
Silver 3 B.j.'s Diamond Mine, 16700-B Lorain, Cleveland PH: 216-671-1111
Silver 4 B.j.'s Diamond Mine, 16700-B Lorain, Cleveland PH: 216-671-1111
Silver 5 B.j.'s Diamond Mine, 16700-B Lorain, Cleveland PH: 216-671-1111
Bronze 6 Swing Inn Bar & Grille, 4809 W.pleasant Valley, Parma PH: 440-845-5880
Bronze 7 B.j.'s Diamond Mine, 16700-B Lorain, Cleveland PH: 216-671-1111
Bronze 8 Danny Mac's, 4920 Pearl Rd., Cleveland PH: 216-741-1540
Bronze 9 Slam Jams, 24108 Lorain Rd., North Olmsted PH: 440-734-0370
Bronze 10 Slam Jams, 24108 Lorain Rd., North Olmsted PH: 440-734-0370
Finals B.j.'s Diamond Mine, 16700-B Lorain, Cleveland PH: 216-671-1111
Thursday Gold 2 Razzles/rockers Cafe, 27128 Bagley Rd., Olmsted Twp. PH: 440-235-3663
Bronze 3 Razzles/rockers Cafe, 27128 Bagley Rd., Olmsted Twp. PH: 440-235-3663
Tuesday Silver 1 Slam Jams, 24108 Lorain Rd., North Olmsted PH: 440-734-0370
Silver 2 Fraternal Order Of Orioles, 3349 W.117th, Cleveland PH: 216-941-9263
Bronze 3 B.j.'s Diamond Mine, 16700-B Lorain, Cleveland PH: 216-671-1111
Bronze 4 Slam Jams, 24108 Lorain Rd., North Olmsted PH: 440-734-0370
Bronze 5 Inn Cahoots, 7525 Broadview Rd., Seven Hills PH: 216-524-6711
Bronze 6 Fraternal Order Of Orioles, 3349 W.117th, Cleveland PH: 216-941-9263
East Silver 1 Slam Jams, 24108 Lorain Rd., North Olmsted PH: 440-734-0370
East Silver 2 Pete's Tavern, 1318 Warrensville Ctr Road, Cleveland PH: 216-291-0400
East Bronze 3 De Pompei's Broadway Gardens,811 Broadway, Bedford PH: 440-232-9872
East Bronze 4 O'rielly's, 13914 Cedar Rd., University Heights PH: 216-321-9356
Finals Fraternal Order Of Orioles, 3349 W.117th, Cleveland PH: 216-941-9263

Basically, what you are asking for is some method to increase the odds of winning.
We can also call this a separate lottery for the Eastside only.

The reason this was never done is because prior to 2006, historically, East Side bars were not buying lottery tickets. If you played in the 2005 or earlier tournaments, and were an East Side bar, you should remember driving to the Westside for your Round 2. They were the only bars buying tickets. Just the way it was.

Last year, after many teams bitched to their owners, the Eastside bought tickets, and they won - obviously. Your bar did not win, but other Eastside bars did. Sorry. That's "the luck of the draw".

I can assure you, I had considered some method for "regionalizing" the lottery, but there simply was not enough ticket sales volume to prevent disaster. As it was, we had about 6-8 weeks to try and sell at least one ticket for each division, and we always barely made that. Many of those tix were purchased by a few bars - fortunately with many boards. Overcrowding was a very real and critical fear. So, you write the text for the rule you wish to see. But take the following FREQUENT situation into consideration:

You have 4 divisions, eastside.
You have 10 eastside bars.
Three of them buy tickets. Each of those three has only 1 or 2 dartboards, as is the case with most.
By the rules, and common sense, you have 4 Playoffs, and 3 winning bars. What do you do with the 4th Division Playoff?

Well, you can make it a policy to "Call every bar, on a specific date, and tell them the status of the lottery". But you must speak to each owner, otherwise you can be accused of "not calling them".
You can't really do another special mailer, because you've probably waited until the deadline for ticket sales, to see if you will get enough sold to do a drawing and guarantee an uncrowded location for each division.
You can "disenfranchise" a westside ticket-buyer if an eastsider buys a ticket afterward. You have to make sure you refund the westsider afterward, since you've voided his chance at winning that division. BUT, if you do this, you can pretty much guarantee no westside barowner buying a ticket in any eastside bar, even if no tix are sold. (basically, you've crippled the purpose of the lottery, to guaranteed a playoff location for each division - uncrowded)
Bottom Line - YOU CAN'T MANIPULATE A LOTTERY AFTER YOU PUBLISH RULES AND SELL JUST ONE TICKET. Otherwise, you no longer have a lottery - you have a scam/sham and someone calls the cops and you go to jail.
So be careful! bricks:

After 2006, and the turnout from the Eastside in the lottery, I think the problem was fixed. Maybe.

The Main Caveat is in your Subject line, which I'll return to. You said "Don't Screw Us This Year". So, that means "Screw the others, but don't screw US"? Fix it, so we win?
Better off with, "Screw Us All the Same", or "Don't Screw Anyone".
If you ask any of last year's winners, I will wager that they will not support your claim that they were screwed. They won. Fair & Square.

What is your proposal? I realize that most things, like "predicting" the Super Bowl winner after the 4th quarter, are easy in hindsight. But, you're using your hindsight. Let's see your foresight.

Here is what is written in the rules it is not a rule but an EXAMPLE

I.E. - Your bar has 2 Monday League teams and 1 dartboard, and you buy a ticket for each division your teams play in and win both times, the 2nd winning ticket drawn will be discarded. If you have 2 dartboards, you will host both Division Playoffs. This does not apply to Finals Location lottery - only one draw will be made for each League night.

The example above included with rule 2 below:

2. The 1st Drawing will be made for each League Division in which there has been at least one ticket purchased.

This is enough to imply that the lottery would be held within the division on the first drawing.

you buy a ticket for each division your teams play in

Is the line above very specific or not specific enough. Is this not specfic to purchasing tickets within your teams division? Would this not be enough to be given an impression that the lottery would be held within its own division? Should we as darters go out as spokes people for the league and sell tickets to this lottery and tell them to only purchase tickets for teams within their division and not have them expect that the lottery be held within its own division?

I also dont see in your official rules the basis on which tickets are to be purchased. It says nothing in these official rules that you can purchase tickets for any division, the only line specific is the one above. Maybe the mailing was more specfic, but if it were then it should have been included in the official rules. I guess if the Ohio lottery wasnt specific I could use a ticket I purchased for the Pennslyvania lottery to collect my winnings, or maybe they put those rules on another sheet of paper seperate from the official rules.

I dont own a bar, I dont support the lottery, I wont ask my bar owner to purchase a ticket, the only thing that needs a fix is to do away with the lottery.

Are these not the types of places were asking to support our sport and our leagues.

What I am asking is SPECFIC in my quote below.

Again your make your own interpretation. Be SPECFIC if your holding a lottery. If your asking people to purchase a ticket for THEIR divisions as is stated in your EXAMPLE but allowing anyone to purchase tickets for any division (which there is no example) it is an unfair representation of what shall be expected.

I have made suggestions somewhere within these forums and they revolve around the playoffs being awarded not purchased in a lottery. I realize your experiance in the office of the CDC is second to none but I also realize that the CDC has been rapidly decreasing while another is rapidly increasing, may this be due to the way things are done?

Here is my proposal! BE SPECFIC!

Personally I dont care where the playoffs are held, my concern is that the lottery has been used as one example of many which turned away darters and bars from the CDC. This can also be their misinterpretation of the lottery or used the lottery as an excuse. This will be the 4th year I have been around the CDC with the lottery in affect, the prevous 3 years have taken to poor response in some manner not just in my division (by the way my home bar only purchased tickets once and hosted the playoffs for my division). Any way you look at it darters and bars are not leaving the CDC because of the great decisions and fabulous products provided by the CDC its the poor ones which send them away.

AGAIN I am not a fan of the lottery I see it as a variable and anytime there are variables there are problems, anytime there are problems they are precieved negativly, remove the variables!

Maybe you didnt see my past post!

LOCATIONS FOR FIRST ROUND OF
TEAM TOURNAMENT 2008 DIVISION -------- TEAMS ---------- LOCATION OF MATCHES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MONDAY NIGHT 4-28-08

GOLD 1 MON:The Outlaws- 1/Frat Darters-3/ Rebels-2/
Capt. Jacq & Crew-4 ----Fraternal Order/Oriole

GOLD 2 MON: Straight Jacket-2/ Nothing Vulgar-3/
Road Dogs-1 ---Bam Boozles

SILVER 3 MON: TripleTonThreat-2/ Rookies-3/ Kenilhounds-4/
Shake n Bake-1 --Spotted Dog

SILVER 4 MON: Gunslingers- 4/ Captain Chaos-3/ Get over It-2/
Casey’s -1 --Whiskers Pub

SILVER 5 MON: Dartaholics-3/ Deal With It-4/ Bad Attitude II-2/
Feed the Pig-1 -Fraternal Order/Oriole

SILVER 6 MON : Old no. 7-1/ Alcohol Fueled-2/ Juggalos-3/
Trippin & Boozin -4 -Bam Boozles

SILVER 7 MON: Flite Crew-2/ 415-3/ Night Flyers-4/
Boozers -1 -Whiskers Pub

BRONZE 8 MON: FU-1/ The Door Knobs-2/ The 76ers-3/
The Stooges -4 --Broadview Sports Club

BRONZE 9 MON: Lois Place-2/ Dix n Chix-3/ D3-4 /
Home Brew=1 --- Arturo’s

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TUESDAY NIGHT 4-29-08

GOLD 1 TUES: Lingus-3/ Bamboozers-2/ Vikings-1/
1 for Vegas-4 ---Fraternal Order/Oriole

GOLD 2 TUES: Flying Wedge-4/ Killer B’s-2/ Team Yeager-3/
Shotz & Beers-1 -------Fraternal Order/Oriole

SILVER 3 TUES: Steels not Here-2/Board Busters-3/Family &Friends-4/
Bulls Hitters-1 ---Danny’s Tavern

SILVER 4 TUES: Tommy’s Flights-1/Rozzi Babus-4/Coral Reefers-2/
Whers my $ Man-1 —Marios Fish Bowl

SILVER 5 TUES: Zymurgy-4/ Jack This-2/ Just try it Once-1/
Boneyard Bulls-3 -----Johnny T’s

SILVER 6 TUES: Devils Rejects-4/ Silver Bullets-3/ Show me One-1/
Blind Squirrels-2 ---Broadview Sports Club

SILVER 7 TUES: Grumpy Old Men-2/Ton It Up-1/Decadent Arrows-3/
Saints & Sinners-4 –--Razzles

*SILVER 8 TUES: Smokin Joes-1/ The Long Shafts-4/ Titties & Beer-3/
Bye Week-2 ----Whiskers Pub
(5771 Smith Rd in Brookpark) (150th and Snow)

SILVER 9 TUES: Moose & Meeses-3/ W.E.O.-2/ Motts @ Hooples-4/
Lois’ Place-1 ---Fraternal Order/Orioles-

*SILVER 10 TUES: Bulls in Heat-2/ T-Squared-3/
Casey’s Eagle Eyes-1 -------Whiskers Pub
(Bar is located at 5771 Smith Rd. in Brookpark)
(150th and Snow)

*BRONZE 11 TUES: Cork Hunters-3/ Wire Away-2/ Mr. E’s.-1/
Rock & Roll-4 -----Spotted Dog
(9617 Clinton Rd. Brooklyn)

BRONZE 12 TUES: Schmokin Hot-3/ Sting Rays-2/
Dartastic-1 ---------Razzles

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THURSDAY NIGHT 5-1-08


SILVER 1 THUR: PHYS-1/ Y’s Guys-3/ Triple Crown-4/
Shooters & Ale-2 ----Y’s Guys

*SILVER 2 THUR: Aint Right-3/ James Gang-2/ Y’s Guys & Girl-4/
Blitzkreig-1 ----Fraternal Order/Oriole
(3349 W. 117th Street Cleveland)(W. 117th & Lorain)

*BRONZE 3 THUR: Nice Bust-3/ Trip Hitters-1/ Is It In-2/
Who’s Up-4 ----Fraternal Order/Oriole
(3349 W. 117th Street Cleveland)(W. 117th & Lorain)

BRONZE 4 THUR: Feathered Friends-2/ Fourth Dart-1/
SCABS-3 ---Venture Inn


NOTE: (*) = No bar in this division purchased tickets and a bar was picked in a Second Chance Drawing.

NOTE 2: If you have a bye in your division, the 2 and 3 seeds play and the winner plays the 1 seed.

IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE CALL 216-226-2582 FOR HELP.
If you are at the bar on the night of play and have questions please call 440-212-5597 or
440-882-3974 for resolution of any issues on the spot by Jon or Missy.
The Draft was held on April 16th and witnessed by Asst. League Director Mark Dodge and Trails
Director Jeff Inman. Special thanks to Blake London who drew all of the tickets.
Seedings are by your team name listed above and the web site.
Order or play: Top seed plays the 4th seed and the 2nd seed and the 3rd seed play.
The 2 winners will then play for a Division Champion.
All games are best of 5- 801 FIDO.
The Number 1 seed will have choice of whether to play their first round match first or second
Unless there are enough boards for all games to be played simultaneously.
Higher seed will be considered the home team and have choice when corking.
All Division Champions will advance to The Diamond Mine for “Gold/Silver/Bronze Championships.
Any team winning their Division and not attending Championship Round will forfeit all money.
Teams must Field a legal team (2-4 players) in the Championship round to be considered attending.
Payouts will be announced at the Championship Round.


ABOVE ARE THE RESULTS OF THIS YEARS LOTTERY.

That being said I will try to address the situation being addressed by Dennis. I will be honest that I do not know all of the rules, but here is they way I set forth to handle the lottery and the way I answered most if not all of the people who called for info preceding the drawing. If an establishment was interested in buying tickets I informed them of the price. Then I informed them how the drawing would work. Basically I told them that I would put all of the tickets they sent in in the bag of the team/teams out of their bar based on what code they put on the ticket that corresponded with their team. ( Lingus on Tuesday night is G1A so Frat. Order/Orioles put that code on the ticket and I put in the bag I had here at the house that had: "Tuesday Night-- Gold 1" on it with all of the teams listed on the bag.) I then told the caller that a representative would pull 1 ticket out of the bag and that bar would be the "Winner" of the lottery for that division and host the division for the first round of play which would include all 4 teams from that division. Any tickets still left in the bag after the winner was pulled would then be put into a "Losing ticket" or "Second Chance" bag and after going threw all of the divisions, I would go back and pull tickets out of the Second Chance bag to fill the divisions that did not have any tickets in their bag. So every ticket sent in had 1 chance to win and all tickets that did not win had a second chance to win.

An idea has been brought to me which I would be in favor of next year is adding an addendum that said that bars that win would not be eligible to receive a winning ticket from the second chance drawing until all bars that purchased tickets had at least 1 division. It would just spread the wealth so to speak and give all owners a piece of the pie so to speak. Multiple past winners I am sure would object to this as it would cut their profits and I am sure people will argue that it is a luck of the draw. I am sure that all of the Non Winners hate the lottery and all winners love the lottery. My hope is that eventually all bars will host a division or two over the long haul and everyone will be happy.

I spoke with a bar owner that won multiple times this year and he gave me the following figures. He will be hosting 19 teams over the week and based on an average of 5 people per team and the average person spends $10-$15 on food and alcohol on any given evening he figures his return on his $75 investment will be around $1,000. Now these are just estimates but he said his teams spend an average of $150 a night easily, so it will probably be much higher. This will be a selling point next year. My plan is to check with The Oriole, Whiskers, and The Diamond Mine after we are finished and see if the can crunch some numbers on how the did financially and if they felt this is a profitable venture for bar owners. My guess right now is that it is well worth their investment. Some other "rules" I laid out when answering questions was that there was no limit on the amount of tickets that anyone bar could purchase but for the first draw they would only be put in divisions that their teams played in. So Bar A could not buy tickets for all divisions on all nights, All they could do is buy tickets for the divisions in which they sponsored teams. But all the tickets that did not win went in to the "Second Chance Bag" and in that bag the more tickets that they had would improve their odds. (NO GUARENTEES) I can tell you this from my experience with the lottery this year, The Bars, in general, that bought the most tickets won the most divisions. So for their investment the should get a pretty return.

As for the drawing itself, it went smoothly, with no major issues. All of the owners I spoke with were happy and expressed an interest in purchasing tickets in the future.
As always please leave you comments here and I will take them under advisement and respond accordingly. I have always tried to be a League Director with a conscience an a brain that reviews issues and is willing to implement procedures if they benefit the club as a whole. I enjoy getting feedback and discussing it with people and trying new avenues to improve the CDC in perception and in fact. Together we can all learn and grow as a darting community and improve darts in northern Ohio. If we work together it will improve darts for everyone and maybe we can rebuild the CDC and make darts enjoyable for everyone. In the future it would be helpful however that all Members of the CDC would promote the sales of lottery tickets so we can get the best return. Even bars only hosting one division will see profit for the evening I am sure. Profits From the tickets sales go into the prize fund for the tournament so the member is just increasing their potential money.

I would like to wish everyone the Best of Luck in the Team Tournament this year and I hope to see all of you at the Finals at The Diamond Mine on May 3rd, 2008.
Remember there is a Blind Draw that will Start around 7pm and the bar is putting in $5 per person. Thee will be lots to do that day and so feel free to join us. Depending on how hectic it is I am going to try to run some "MINI_BLIND_DRRAWS" during the day.

All the best and hit lots of Trip 20's
Thank all of you for being loyal members of the Cleveland Darter Club,
And thank you for your patience while Missy, The BOD, Jeff, Jamie and myself to our best to improve the CDC.

Jon

cool: cool: cool: bliss: bliss: bliss: bam: