This concerns Monday Night but I wanted to put it hear to make sure that everyone sees it.

I was recently informed that “Gold 2” on Monday nights doesn’t have to throw best out of 3. I'm pretty much just looking for a written conformation from a league director on this topic. I figure if I had something printed out that I may have a more persuasive discussion tonight.

While we are on the topic of gold though, I have a question that I would like to present to all members of the CDC.

If the gold division has shrunk over the years, because of people leaving the CDC for any reason, should teams that are not up to that caliber of play be put in to gold in their stead? So the real question is, should the term gold change to fit the league, or should people just be encouraged to throw better?

My personal opinion is that, if we don’t have a gold division at all, that is the way it should be. If there are 2 or 3 teams up for the challenge of throwing gold, then there should be a 2 or 3 team gold division. They can still play against silver, but it wouldn’t count against the silver teams. I just don’t think that we should lower the bar for gold.

Please respond. I would like to hear other peoples's opinion on this topic.

I'll let Jon or Missy correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding:

Those teams in the Gold division are required to play best of 3 except in these 2 situations:

1) Both captains agree to play just one game, or
2) There is only one board available for match play (I believe this was noted on the inside cover of each Gold team's folders)

I think the intention of identifying divisions as "gold", "silver", or "bronze", was primarily for purposes of grouping teams for the Team Tournaments, but also to ensure that those teams that did well in the first half session were grouped together (in "gold"), and those teams that didn't do so well were likewise grouped together along with "beginner" teams in the "bronze division." Everyone else was put into Silver.

I think the distribution between the three levels on Monday night makes sense: 7 "gold" teams, 20 "silver" teams, and 8 "bronze" teams. The breakout for Tuesday is similar: 8 "gold" teams, 31 "silver" teams, and 8 "bronze" teams. I recall in the past that the majority of teams were grouped into the "bronze" division, which never made sense to me.

As far as the caliber of play within the gold division, I would say that many of the top CDC players are not playing in our traditional leagues, but instead have focused on tournaments and the various "singles" leagues that have popped up around town. I think these payers were looking for a tougher challenge than what was offered in traditional dart leagues. So yes, there has been a reduction in "true" gold players currently playing in the CDC leagues. But I think the current distribution of teams between Gold, Silver and Bronze makes sense. I'm pretty certain all of the teams placed in Gold finished first or second within their divisions in the previous session.

3) Mr. London informs the captain of a Gold 2 team that Gold 2 will not have to play best of 3.

Mr. London called me at home and agreed that Gold 2 would not have to play best of 3. He also told me that you said you wouldn't make anyone, who didn't want to, play best of 3. We generally go out to just have fun, and if we are going to get walked all over the dart board, we would rather treat it like a Band-Aid and get it over with as fast as possible.

We are not a “gold team.” I think that if we apply ourselves we can be silver at best. Even then we would have to change our mental game a lot.

Back to the Age-Old question of defining a "Gold" player......

If you ask a beginner, you might hear a "Gold" player never misses.....hits only triple 20s and double bulls......I know quite a few Gold players that *WISH* that was the case.....

Unless we want to lump EVERYONE into "Silver" the term "Gold" NEEDS to change to fit the league. Exactly how do you draw a line between a "gold" player and a "high silver" player? And when you have a 5-6 player team, how do you determine if that team is in fact "Gold"?

The only method we have right now is the best finishing teams move up to the better divisions. The teams that finish worst move down. After a few sessions, the divisions will even out and be VERY competitive.

Would it make a difference if the Gold 1 division was on a schedule with a Silver 2 division? Exactly what is the difference, besides the name? Its still the 2nd highest division.

It doesn't matter what you call them.....I don't care if we called the divisions apples, oranges and bananas, there will always be teams who fear the unknown of playing against the "best" players. That's why I do believe as mixed up as the divisions were last half, it was a learning experience for a lot of teams. Almost every schedule had one "gold" team on it. And hopefully most teams learned that "gold" isn't so scary.....you can go out, play your games, maybe not win the night, but still have fun and even learn something from a more experienced team. But teams that played well against those "gold" teams should expect to be in a higher division than the teams that didn't win 1 game against the "gold" teams.

Just my thoughts.
R~

Wasn't aware of that rule, but sounds fine to me (I'm a captain of a "gold 1" team). Glad to hear your team is out to have fun. The Outlaws look forward to playing you guys. We like to have fun too! You may be surprised on how well you do.

I think the only differences would be (1) best of 3 versus 1 game; and (2) placement in the Team Tournaments.

I personally have no problem switching the "Gold 2" designation to "Silver 2", if that is what is decided.

what will happen when we show up and our captains talk over playing best of 3 and like london was told we will not play. but the captains can't agree on the format so we dont feild a team is that a forfit. after all j. london told us the one game format is fine. if an agreement cant be reached who is at falt.

It’s a pleasure to finally be able to converse with you Jeff. Your name is well known within the CDC. I think I’m going to enjoy having an intelligent discussion with you.

Let me apologize for not being 100% clear from the beginning. One of my team mates wrote Mr. London expressing some concerns the he had, which prompted Jon to call me around 11am yesterday. We had an interesting discussion.

I understand that we are in a transition period. However the rest of my team is a little less understanding then I am. I was told that we threw in “silver,” essentially, last half. Now again, I know some of the teams in “silver “ last half shouldn’t have been. Two teams within our division didn’t break 40 points, and one had 18. Now the fact that we had 100 isn’t a testament of our ability, it is a statement that two of the teams in our league were placed too high. Not that I have anything against those two teams, in fact we thoroughly enjoyed hanging out with them. I just think that maybe they should have been moved down and us left throwing silver. If we blew everyone out of the water next half, then it would have been justified to place us in gold.

asskisser:

Sorry but the above emoticon was way too appropriate

biggrin: hysteria:

Nice. I’m trying to have a serious conversation and you insult me. I would have expected a little more professionalism from a moderator. Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to replace you. I have some free time.
bam: cya:
This is a joke of course.

No offense taken there Jmoses......

So back on subject. How did your team do in your first "gold" match up?

You calling me out guy.

We played the 4th spot gold 1 team last night. We lost 6-7, but 3 or 4 games we didn’t even stand a chance. We just got annihilated. I wasn’t as much afraid of throwing gold as I just didn’t want to throw best of three. By the old standard though they only had one “gold thrower” on their team in my opinion.

I’m still wishing that Jon London would come on the forum and post what he told me over the phone. Doesn’t he usually respond to everything, but now that I personally ask him to, he wants to be all quiet.
bricks:

Are you hiding behind something? tingues:

Now tell me, was it 3 or 4 games? You're not sure? :slapface:
6 to 7 not a bad showing. :o
Don't forget your only competing against two other teams in your division because one of the other teams chickened out poke:

So, you've got third place wrapped up sport:

Jmoses...... IMHO Best of three doesn't really take that long, if you have the boards available and you walk and chalk. coffee:

If I was in your shoes my biggest beef would be the end of the year winter tournament. Cause you ain't got a chance in heck to win that one. poke:

(the last comment was to just try and rouse your competitive nature) biggrin:

You just love to poke the bear, don't you?

HA! HA. HA? That comment fkew over my head.

Nope!

Right.

Yea I know, guy.

You want to throw guy? Darts I mean, not fists. I'm horrible at that second game. Then again you are kind of old, so. Shut up. Your getting me of topic.
sport:

I thought about that. Another problem is, with our team, we rely on each other a lot. Every game is a team effort. If you spread us out across the bar, then some of us will be a little lost, while we’re throwing. Now that we are throwing against higher caliber throwers, strategy is more important.

I’m not exceptionally worried about that because we generally down win those tourneys anyway.

You might have to try harder then that. I don’t have much of a competitive nature.

Now what are you going to say. GUY!

[QUOTE=Jmoses #237-03,Jan 15 2008, 11:50 AM] You just love to poke the bear, don't you?

Now what are you going to say. GUY! [/QUOTE]
Read the following with a grain of salt, cause I know who you are tingues:
[QUOTE=me] Are you hiding behind something? tingues: [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jmoses] HA! HA. HA? That comment fkew over my head. [/QUOTE]

I can't help you on that one.

[QUOTE=me] Jmoses...... IMHO Best of three doesn't really take that long, if you have the boards available and you walk and chalk. coffee: [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jmoses] I thought about that. Another problem is, with our team, we rely on each other a lot. Every game is a team effort. If you spread us out across the bar, then some of us will be a little lost, while we’re throwing. Now that we are throwing against higher caliber throwers, strategy is more important.[/QUOTE]
Maybe some on your team will throw better :o Because they wouldn't have to listen to you, telling them how to throw? beehive:



[QUOTE=me] (the last comment was to just try and rouse your competitive nature) biggrin: [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=] You might have to try harder then that. I don’t have much of a competitive nature. [/QUOTE]

You are not competitive? hysteria: bsflag:

As far as best 2 out of 3 is concerned that should be up to the captians before the match, you dont record all 3 games so who would know anyhow. If time isnt a factor play the best of three or mix it up until you agree.

Back in the day as I remember it.... Gold 1 was higher than Gold 2, Gold 2 was higher than Silver 1, and so on, but all Gold, all Silver, and all Bronze were the same in the championship. As I know that changed when the CDC went to localized scheduling, Gold is Gold and Silver is Silver.

I'm not going to tell you Gold players are better than Silver or Silver players are better than Bronze, some are, some are not. What I will tell you is that there isnt allot of difference bettween some of the best Gold players and some of the worst Bronze players. If there is an intrest a Bronze player can advance in skill to a Gold level very quickly. That being said, if you or your team dont have that much of an intrest maybe Gold isnt a good division for you, or if you do have an intrest maybe playing best of 3 is the practice you need to advance in skill or at least experiance that Gold players cant always win 2 of 3.

Yea, but if there is a disagreement, it defaults back to "if there are enough boards, gold plays best of tree."

That's what I've been saying. We didn't want to be gold. We were placed.

Oh! Who was it that called me up about a month ago and asked if I would be an alternate on his team. When I remember his name I'll let you know.

Maybe if my team started listening to me we would win more. OH NO HE DIDN'T JUST SAY THAT!!!

I am the least competitive person I know. I'm way less competitive then you. You wanna fight about it.

Need I say more??????

I admit it, that was me and by the way it's completely irrelevent :slapface: on top of that I was desperate! bonk:

That was a joke along with just about every thing I have kidded about to the whiny a** jmoses. poke:




On a serious note to jmoses, I hope you and your team can grin and bear it thru this half of darts and maybe you'll all be better darters when its all said and done.

Good luck and throw well asskisser: biggrin:

How could I possibly get any better? I’m already like a dart god. LOL biggrin: up:

How did you guys do last night.

we got smoked 5-8 bricks: cry:

Ok, time for the big mouth eastsider to weigh in. (and trust me it's a lot of weight)

Here's my problem with only throwing one game. Last season I drove 50 minutes to get to darts for one match in particular. ( I know, it's my choice to drive from the east side to play in CDC, but hear me out.) I got there and warmed up. We started a little late- 8:15. The last dart was thrown at 9:29. 1 hour and 14 minutes of darts. You say you are out to have fun, how do you even get to the point of having fun in that short of a period of time.

Maybe you should have taken that “gold” alternate you have. You might have been able to leave with your dignity.
cool:

I give you nothing but respect for driving from the east side. I’m just curious, were you playing on more then one board that night. If you guys finished the whole night in 74 min, and you were only playing on one board, that is sick. That would average out to just over 5 min per game. If my team had a night like that we would probably ask the other team to hang around and throw for another hour or so.

Jmoses....... Work on your math skills :slapface: 1 hour 14 minutes = 74 minutes. That a little over 5 1/2 minutes per game. If played on one board.

Tony...... Remind me not to play your team biggrin:

What are you talking about, that’s what I have. Give me a break guy, I’m still a lot a bit under the weather.

offtopic:
Besides, Your short.

I would like to think that I am a patient man. Jon London, please post here what you told me over the phone. If you don’t you will lose any respect that I had left for you. It is real easy to tell me what ever I want to hear on the phone. It is starting to seem like you were just trying to shut me up. Please respond.

i dont think we would ever finish a match that fast. what were some of the dart counts. like moses said thats just sick.

you will have to email london moses and hope he responds with text and not a phone call.but that would leave a paper trail and he would have to honor what he told you.

dennis 5-8 i guess what moses said is true. im sure there will be nights we were we wont get close to 5.
but when that happens the bar is always open drunks:

OK Here I am.
I was sort of waiting to see how the first week went to decide how to break the divisions up. I see that you lost 7-6 and I can tell you from looking at the scores that are coming in that we have not had a 13-0 or a 12-1 or even a 10-3 score yet.
Mon. and Tues. are in so far as I am posting this on Thurs. am.) Most scores have been very close which means that The people who did scheduling this session (Jeff, Rose, Missy, Dave Ellis, Mark Dodge, Johhny "X" on the east side and myself) accomplished what we set out to do and that was keep people as localized as possible while keeping everyone in a competitive skill level. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!! (NOTE: All scores are not in yet) I honestly do not remember exactly what I told Josh but it was something to the effect that I spoke with Jeff Inman about the 2 out of 3 issue and he indicated that maybe instead of the way we have it where both captains must agree to play 1 game as opposed to 2 out of 3 that we should change it to either:
1. It is Gold 2's captains choice if 2 out of 3 is played
or
2. Both captains must agree to play 2 out of 3 or only 1 game will be played.

Most Gold 1 teams want to play 2 out of 3 so when they are playing each other it should not be an issue.
I will send out an e-mail to all captains this weekend with my decision. If anyone would like to offer any argument for or against please leave it here, and I will take it into consideration of my decision.
The club is moving in a positive direction and you can see by the scores that will be posted this Friday and by the fact that we have accomplished all of the goals that we set forth to do that we are more than capable of running this league. Missy and I have worked very hard to prepare for this session and have listened to all of the darters feedback. One thing I would like to mention is that this is now a club that relies heavily on the Internet. Most if not all of our communication will come via the web site or e-mail. Captains and all darters need to ch their e-mail daily and keep up to date on the web site and forum pages so that they will be fully abreast of the goings on in the Cleveland Darter Club. Please be conscientious and keep up to speed with the club. The only hiccup we had so far was Captains not checking tr e-mail for schedule changes and 1 team went to the wrong bar on Tuesday. All in all not the worst thing that could happen. It is especially important early on in every session to check for schedule changes because we may add or delete teams that join or drop out of the league, so keep checking your e-mail and the web site for announcements.
Please leave any feedback here, I will check Sunday morning before I send out the e-mail with the final decision on the Gold Division.

Thanks
Jon


cool: cool: cool: cool:

I believe it has always been that Gold throws best of 3 unless both captains decided otherwise or on the occasion that there was only 1 board available in the bar. This being the case why are we looking to change that? If the bar has 1 board, fine play one game, otherwise what is the issue with playing best of 3? If we are all truely there to have a good time what's wrong with having a good time for a little longer?

And in response to the 1 board question, no we were playing on 2 boards, but nobody was in a big hurry either. I would bet the 5 minutes per game was not too far off the mark.

I guess my point is, if you are playing one of the Gold 1 teams, the night is not going to be that long either way. If the night starts to drag then bring the issue up again at that point.

Tony,

This was kinda brought up earlier in the thread and probably lost in the banter between me and Jmoses, Sorry about that.

I believe Jmoses brings up a good point about a team (like Jmoses') that is trying to compete with better and more experienced "gold" teams.

see tony the problem is our team wants nothing to do with gold we never signed up for or asked to be there. we took first in a joke of a division 2 teams had no reason to even be in a league but that made us gold players

london as far as our 7-6 match we were up 5-1 i think and they went off they had a player open with a 180,79,123 there is no one on our team that can or ever will hit 9 straight darts like that if we would of played best of 3 we might have won 2 all night.
we are a mid level silver team at best

If that's the case then you will finish lower and be sent back down to a lower division. Why should the people who come out to play dart and want to play more games have to settle for less? We pay our fees and drive to the bar to play, not to get out as quickly as possible. I still don't see what it hurts to play a few more games in a night. I guess I will never get the mentality that you want your night out to end as quickly as possible so you can hurry home. In all honesty. We usually finish best of 3 before the other teams in lower divisions finish playing just one game. No need to reply to me, I just wanted to other side of the argument to be represented.

Hey Tony,
Think about it this way....equate me to someone on Jmoses' team, I am probably comparable skill level.....
If I play you, and you happen to have an "off" game, or I have a great game, and I win, I get the match point if we only play 1 game.
If I play you, and you happen to have an "off" game, or I have a great game, and I win, when its best of three you're going to make sure you win the second and the third games, so I don't get the match point.
Its a little easier for the less experienced players to "sneak out" a win here and there against better players when its only one game, than when its best of three.
Just a thought.
I, personally, prefer the best of three, even when its a stronger player. That's how I'll improve my game and get to play more than just 3-4 games in a night if everyone on my team shows up. We're in Silver 6 and we played best of three on Tuesday night (except for one guy, in his first singles, chose to play only one and lost....you BET he played best of three in his second singles...LOL).


Rose ~

OK, but in the same respect, why should we have to do something that we didn’t sign up for.

As I’ve said before, if we finished at 9:30pm we would probably stay a little longer and throw, even if we just got our buts handed to us.

The people on my team do not have the mentality to be throwing gold.
The people on my team do not have the mentality to be throwing gold.
The people on my team do not have the mentality to be throwing gold.

Maybe that will sink in with everyone now. Every game is a team effort. What’s going to happen when my guy on board three wants help, and I stop my game on board one to go help him. Who is going to be happy then.

Thank you Jon. I apologize if I was getting a little hostile, but frustration was setting in. If you were waiting for something, why didn’t you post something to that respect, instead of hanging me out to dry.

I guess we're back to this...


WOW


I appologize for putting my opinion on here.

Tony,

bike:
No .... Please don't hesitate to give your opinion! I don't care if others including myself might disagree with some of your ideas. We want opinions and ideas! It's a forum. I think people just have to learn to take others opinion as just opinions and not to get bent out shape over a disagreement of ideas.

A couple of things I want to mention.
1. Whether your team has the "mental capacity" to throw gold is irrelevant. How fair is it to put a team in a division where they are far and away the best team just so they can win first place every time, just because they say they do not want to and did not sign up for "GOLD". When we did scheduling we took into account how teams did. When I looked at it I determined that a team that scored over 100 points in an 11 game format in a 14 week schedule, must be a pretty decent team. In a 13 game format in the same 14 week schedule there will be 28 more games to play so I will readjust the figures next session. In the summer we had lots of 11-0 and 10-1 scores every week because former personnel just lumped people together. In the first week of league play, and I am looking at all of Monday's and Tuesday's scores we only had ONE 13-0 score and ONE 12-1 score and TWO 10-3 scores. So parity is back in the CDC. If your score was 7-6 we have you in the correct division.
2. Everyone needs to throw out their preconceived notions of "GOLD, SILVER and BRONZE". The way I look at it is teams that score well in a certain point range, that I will determine at the end of this session, will be grouped together (GOLD). Teams that score average will be grouped together, (SILVER). And BRAND NEW teams and teams that score low will be grouped together, (BRONZE)
Every session teams will be re-evaluated and placed accordingly. The people who schedule try to keep the main two factors of team strength and location at the forefront of the scheduling. Unfortunately every session there will be an odd team out that may be ranked a little too high or have to travel a little too far. I will make sure that that team gets priority next session and has the least amount of travel and is in the skill range that we feel is appropriate. It is an evolving process and the people that help me have been in the game for a long time and we know most of the teams and players.
One important factor is that teams really need to stop playing the "GAME" where you under rank your team, or change bars and captains trying to get in weaker divisions. Just be honest and forthcoming and the scheduling committee will get it right. It takes a lot of time to research teams to see where they have played and finished in previous sessions and having to cross reference them because of new captains and bars just makes the process all that much more difficult. Now by all means if someone else wants to be captain and another bar offers you a better deal or better location, by all means make the change, but let us know who you are so we can keep everything fair for everyone else.
I am still weighing the options about the issue here in this topic. However I have already changed the Thursday league from "GOLD 1 / SILVER 2 to both SILVER 1 and 2. That way for the team tournament it will be easier and no team has to throw 2 out of 3 on Thursday. I am leaning toward the change of "GOLD 2's" choice
in the match against "GOLD 1." in respect to throwing 2 out of 3 in a match.
Hope this clarifies things a little and gives people a little insight into how the process works.
Please leave any questions and feedback here.
Jon

cool: cool: woohoo: bliss: bam: cool: cool:

I guess if what my team wants is irrelevant then our membership in the CDC is irrelevant . Like I said, we play for fun. Throwing best of three doesn’t sound fun to us. When we stop having fun, we’ll just quit.

I never said to put is in a different division. Just call the one we’re in silver. My main argument has always just been, we don’t want to throw best of three.

You know you keep saying this. If we need to do this, then why does gold still throw best of three. We should throw that out as well.

Consider it thrown out, along with my aspirations of ever being a life long CDC member.

Don’t forget that which ever team complains the most, the fastest gets moved back down. Then a representative from the CDC tells everyone that they were moved so that they wouldn’t have to drive as far. When you look at there schedule however, it seem as if they drive nearly the same amount.

I sincerely hope that people stick around long enough for you to get your stuff together.

crap: