After reading the Crystal topic, I noticed something that got me to thinking. Baran, defending his decision to rid our list of the crystal weapons, used Witch Elves as an example of an aspect of a society that is only represented through one unit. Contemplating this fact for a bit, I came to the conclusion that perhaps the crystal in the army list was a way to add some flavor and differing themes to our army. While I don't think we are taking the right approach with the crystal, I would argue that our list lacks variability like other lists.

Now, before you object, let me explain: While we certainly do have some variability in our units, I feel that our list is lacking ideas and concepts for themed armies. Again, let us take the dark elves for example. While the list is geared toward the dark elf armies as a whole, the fluff brings in so many different types of armies the Dark Elves employ- you can have a normal Druchii invasion force, which is more or less just a balanced list of Dark Elves (Warriors, Executioners, Cold ones, etc). Along with this "normal list" however, there are lots of themed lists that have been developed thanks to the fluff- A Druchii Slaving party (Corsairs, RBTs), A beastmaster list (lots of big nasties), the Temple of Khaine list (cauldron of blood, lots of Witch Elves), the Har Ganeth list (Executioners, lots of them)- the list can go on. With a little fluff on the culture of the Druchii, especially on some of the varying occupations and lifestyle these elves take, entire army lists can and have been created to suit those ideas.

This variability does not just lie in the druchii, either. Look at other armies- The differnt cities of the Empire, the Dwarves, and Brets all allow for the player to take the fluff, and model an army around it. I would dare say a Middenheim list would look nothing like a Nuln list, even if you used the "official" army list of the empire to create both lists.

So the question now is how do we create this type of variability in our army lists?

I think what we need at this point to make our army a bit more unique isn't lots of flashy new units that do cool stuff- we need the fluff to inspire people to create "themed" lists, as opposed to "balanced" or even "WAAC" lists. After we've accomplished a bit more fluff to fill out the army, THEN I think we might want to come back and add one or two more ideas.

At the moment, I feel our army is the basic “Army of Nirvana” idea- ranks of warriors mustered from the main city to fight the forces of Chaos. So what other lists can we think of? Let’s start there, and see what we can come up with.

RG

There's always the Demon-hunters list we could make. By taking out Crystal, we could possibly add one unit that is incredibly hell-bent (I always wanted to say that, a Hell-bent angel, hehe) on destroying demons. Something along the lines of a revised version of the Zealots I proposed way back when, a revised Demon Slayer unit, etc. The list would be Vengeances, Sons of Fire, another Demonhunter unit, Dominions, then one other Hero/Lord. OR we could possibly make it so that the Dominion may only be the general if all other units have the Demonhunter ability.

Right right, but again, you're missing a bit of the point of this thread- it's not to throw new units, items, and abilities into the list, it's to think of ways we can work in new fluff to give us ideas for a themed army. I'm of the opinion once we've done that we can start considering if any new units would benefit the themed army, and the main army as a whole.

That being said, I quite love the idea of a Daemon Hunting list... maybe a small group of angels... hmmm, I need to go write some ideas down.

Like i suggested in the other post, some sort of Dragon Cult. But like you said, you dont want us to just throw more rules into the boiling pot.

Oh, Nirvvana was abolished after the interference, and subseqeuent banning of HRP2 were it was changed to Ayamith (Grumbles a lot).

I dont think that themeing the current army (excluding crystal) is a possibility, the units in the army are just far to "flat base". I agree some variation is going to be needed though, one way of doing it is creating a crazed cult of Daemonhunters, who, prehaps, rather than idolising Seraphall, idolise another angel. Enter Appolyan the Destroyer prehaps?

GS

hehe... you read my mind Grand Seraphim, you read my mind...

Well, I'm not averse to adding new rules, just adding new rules that came from the stuff between GS' toes. Why don't we have a unit with...gasp....poison? Or KB? Just examples. What is an executioner? It's a model, with a basic elven elite statline, heavy armor, a GW and KB. Yet it's got fluff up the wazoo. It doesn't have some mystlical "for every 8th model you kill, you get X to the Yth extra VPs, where X is the number of models killed times by that specific Execs unit, multiplied by the number of units within 6" of the execs unit, and where Y is the amount of letter in the first name of the general of the army." Rules can be simple, with complex rules.
I'm eating sweedish fish, so that probably didn't make sense.
---Baran

Poison may be odd for angels, though I do like the killing blow suggestion- very characterful of a race that has plenty of time to train.

Alright then, let's get to fluffin' this army up people!

Why?

Other than that...

Do we really, really need what is being discussed, or it it just a "that would be nice"
? just trying to gauge the mood here.

We should focus on the the main list first, then start making side lists.

Okay, Shooty i know it seems like a good idea to sort out the main list, but we just dont seem to be able to do it. I must have been trying to organise playtests for the past two weeks now, nobody wants to do them! (which is annoying).

We cant finalise anything until we get some playtests done! So, the only other option is to theoryhammer a new part of the army or the site is just going to die. We need some playtesting on the main list NOW if we want it out before 7th Edition. If thats not going to happen we need to work on the other stuff (appendix lists, SPC's etc)

GS

I would argue that yes, we do really, really need what I'm proposing, and here's my reasoning.

At the moment, we have a list that's been developed around what I would consider fairly weak, and horribly outdated fluff (when's the last time we redid our fluff anyways?). As a result, we're trying to basically create what I would consider to be a "nameless" army- that is, an army without a really defined history. Think of it this way- basically we've been running on two ideas since we started this list- these are beings of order, they aren't human, and they fight Chaos. Even though we've been focusing on the main fluff, it's still just not up to par with a warhammer army- every other army in the warhammer world has a very developed background beyond their fighting style and basic goals: Take the wood elves for example. We know they fight to protect the forest and they employ guerilla warfare. But guess what? We also know something about their social structure (kindreds with some guys at the top pulling the strings), we know about their religion (Kurnous and Isha), we know about their lifestyles (varied, but we know about it), we know about some of their rituals (Wild Hunt), the list goes on. I would argue that it's information like this that gives an army character and allows them to develop into something like the other armies have develped into. Otherwise, you're just going to have an unpopular army that no one likes because they don't have well established fluff (what's that, did I hear some one say Ogre Kingdoms?).

As a result, I think before we go too much further with the army we should begin to develop its fluff so that we know where we are trying to go.

This post isn't about making side lists, it's more about establishing some culture and background for the angelic army so that A) we have a better feel for the army we're trying to create, and B) it allows the player to envision what is a "themed" list, not a side list. A themed list uses the exact same rules to it as the core army, but has a section of fluff behind it that gives the player a reason to say, take Vengences over Archangels.

As for focusing on the main list, we haven't very well been doing a good job of that lately, and seeing as we most likely won't be getting this list out before 7th, we may as well go ahead and get the fluff ironed out, tweak the army for 7th, and then get it out there after it's be tweaked.

Basically, to sum up what I'm saying, I feel at the moment we are trying to take shots in the dark to finish this army list. We don't have a perfectly clear vision of what we are trying to make here, and with some better established fluff, this list will finish up nicely, and give the army enough feeling to create the "Themed armies" this post was originally about.

Hope this all makes sense,
RG

http://s11.invisionfree.com/Seraphim/index.php?showtopic=824 http://s11.invisionfree.com/Seraphim/index.php?showtopic=781

Well, this is all the fluff developed about our culture and civilisation so far.

Cant talk for long, busy.

Cheers
GS

So RG what you saying is that we need more fluff about some of the more random stuff?

just to see if i'm on the right lines....

Say a language thing (i dunno, look @ the eldar book in the language section for some ideas) and some bits about things WHICH COULD INSPIRE OTHERS TO MAKE THEMED ANGEL ARMIES.

Kinda like that????

*sigh* Not necessarily language, Haktar, I'm talking culture in general. Take the Dark Elf culture for example... again.

The Dark elf fluff develops their multiple facets of their culture- day to day life as a soldier in the armies of the Witch King, the slaver's life, the entire state's religion, and professions such as beast taming, to name a few. Because of these multiple views of the dark elf society, two things are accomplished. First, the army has a "feel" to it. Sure, GW could just say "Trust us, Dark Elves are evil", but they actually make more of an impression on the gamers by showing us just how sinister the Druchii are through their fluff. Second of all, by giving us this background information on the Dark Elves, it inspires the gamer to make themed lists that help to give more life to the army as a whole. At the moment, I feel like we're just telling our future audience "trust us, the Angelic forces fight Chaos"... but how do we show this? What about their culture, their lifestyle, their beliefs, and their alternative types of lifestyles illustrate the angels' collective desire to irradicate Chaos from the world? By answering this question, we can give the gamer a bit more of an idea on the feel of the army, which will incourage themed lists. But, my point is just not about themed lists now- my point is that it will really help bring the list together as a whole if we give them some strong background.

I think that's pretty clear. Tell me if it isn't.

I know. that was why i preceded it with "just to see if i'm on the right lines.."

If we're dropping crystal though that makes our core selections even smaller. We only hav ethree now, I think if we drop Crystal we need a new core.

(Points to weblinks posted)

Rogue, everything you are saying you would like are in those links (pretty much). We have background, we explain the fall and why angels fight chaos.

GS

Rouge knows about the links but there is one issue those things cannot solve, the fact that the army's fluff is changing our creation is changing to something else i dont know whay yet but it is gunna be diffrent from what it is now.

also those backrouynd stories just makes our army a very bland and plain like the color of pasta (which when you eat plain when you are hungry isnt verry tastey)

I rather like plain pasta as a matter of fact :P

I see what your trying to hint at DA, and i do agree with you to a certain degree, but at the moment people are still trying to establish the "plain". Hopefully more colour mix will be addedd in the future.

To be honest i would like story's about Angelic Cults, Fallen Angels, everything! Others, however, seem less enthusiastic to have things of this nature in the army book.

GS

The only problem with the angelic cults and such based on our current fluff is that the angels are epitomized as beings of order. Because of this, there can be no variation in their philosophies and beliefs, as suich things would suggest a state of change, or chaos, in the minds of the angels. This is why I think the fluff is in dire need of changing.

Why not just change it so that Angels are not as it were bound by order, but instead, as a "society" believe it to be very important. Therefore you will get some "rebels" which explain cults etc.

~paints target on idea and waits~

That's kinda what I'm working on right now, but we'll see what the others think.

Bah. I hate it when people try and sneak things past me. ;) But you do have a lot of good points, rogue.

The problem is this: the army is created to the the antithesis of Chaos. That's the whole point. Take that way, and you don't have angels anymore. That means disorder, powerstruggles, rebelion, and such go against the nature of Angels. They exist to resist those things.
In short, their ultimate goal is universal order.

However...

They were created rather at the last minute. They know their goal is to finish chaos, but they're rather leaderless, ESPECIALLY with the destruction of Sepiroth. And the Old Ones didn't exactly leave many instructions. Furthermore, remember that Seraphaal/Xholania was the secretive, outcast Old One. It's almost certain that he had different plans from those of the other Old Ones. Nobody, except the angels, would have any idea of what they are, and especially of how the other races fit into them.

So...

I can think of two good solutions:

1. Create factions within the angels. Now, I have to make this clear. They are not human factions. Angels DO NOT seek power for themselves. But, they could quite easily have different opinions about how to achieve their ends. Maybe factions isn't the best word, but I think there would probably be different schools of thought or philoshophies about how to go about bringing order.

2. Change the ends and objectives themselves. This I hate, for obvious reasons


I'm back in the states now, so you have to deal with me again.

Cheers,
Woodpecker

Well I am closer to being finished with my summer work and getting a lot more free time.

I understand exactly where RG is coming from and I agree that we should try to establish a well defined fluff that allows others to see different lists. I agree that if we do not have the fluff to let others make fluffy lists then they will focus on just the strongest units and the army will only be played one way and die quickly.

I do not promise anything as you know that the past time i said I would do something I became bogged down in other things and never got around to it, but I might be able to sit down and write some short fluffy stories about different parts of their culture. These would not be final in any way but they may give others the ideas needed to expand upon them.

I just got an great idea. Chaos is split into 5 "factions" right? Why not make it so that "factions" of angels were designed/born/intended to take out each god, or meet the balanced force (Undivided) head on?

Generals could be Destroyers of Khorne, etc, followed by his own units. Or we could name the "factions" after different Seraphim and they could follow the ways of that Seraphim.

Tzeentch- Heavy Magic Defense
Khorne- Fast, quick bait units and hard hitting blocks of infantry
Nurgle- Immunity to Fear/Poison?
Slaanesh- not sure, since everything is ItP, possibly magic that works even against ItP units?
Undivided- Basically what we have now

Of course this pretty much turns us into a new updated version of the Chaos Army, but who knows, maybe they could be side lists?

I'm not so sure. High Elves and Dark Elves are antithesis, but their special rules don't cancel the other out. It enhances what they do best, against their rivals. So what you're suggesting gives us a huge advantage over Chaos, and they get nada against us.
---Baran

@ Clavix:

While your concept is certainly an idea, I seem to remember us trying something along tohse lines at the very beginning of making the list, and we decided against it. What Baran said is one good reason. Another is it simply turns the army into a "KILL CHAOS OMG" list, and I think it has so much more potential than that. As a result, I think the way re represent our hatred for chaos has been take n to the level that is appropriate for an army.

By making Angels beings of Order, which is the antithesis of Chaos, the problem still remains that A) They are then Daemons which everyone here seems to not be able to stomach (though I don't understand why) B ) They could not really be created by the old ones, as I doubt the old ones had the power to create beings of the warp C) we suddenly find ourselves with an army that has no sense of change or dynamics within its ranks. Perfect order yields no change, and chaos is a function that is required for any world to function. It's simply the fact of not only the warhammer world, but the greater world in general.

My last concern is we're equating Order with good, and angels with good, so therefore Order with Angels. Chaos is a good force to have in the warhammer world, there's just those nasty side effects that may include daemonic incursions. Chaos is not evil, and by trying to label it with such a strict meaning we prevent the army from flourishing. The prospect of complete chaos is bad, but so is the prospect of complete order.... so what is there to do?

A nice suggestion Clavix, but i just dont see it happening, Barans response was very good and pretty much the reason i was going to give.

In relation to Rogues comments on Chaos and its nature, he is correct, without chaos there would be no change but if we were to portray the Angels as opposites of chaos (against change) then this would also suggest an equlibriam being reached between the two forces (thus eternal war). Preahps the angels have accepted this, prehaps they have not THIS is where i think we can bring in these different schools of thought in angelic composition etc. (in fact i quite like the idea of giving an army a "Philosophy".)

So while one army may accept the need for balance in the world between Chaos and Order, another Philosophy teachs that the Angels should be supreme and that everything will work out fine (the total destruction of chaos). The different Philosophies, although apposing, work for the same ideals and so dont come into direct conflict with each other .

GS

I agree that we could do something along the lines that there are opposing schools of thought in the angels, and it also gives reason why angel vs angel battles might happen.

Well, I wasn't really thinking they would be "KILL CHAOS OMG" as RG put it, but more of schools of angels that do things differently. They don't need to be complete anti-chaos, but kind of lean towards that a bit, while still being good against other armies. We could probably have one school that prefers to use brainpower and magic, one that prefers tactical maneuvering, one that prefers straight combat, one that prefers fearless warriors, etc, etc similar to chaos, but a bit different to set us apart.

I don't like that, sorry. I just don't like that at all.

I think we should probably start a new thread to discuss different philosophies. Speaking of philosophies, I won Risk yesterday as Plato's Republic... ;)

Rogue, what are you trying to say? That this is an unsolvable problem? :P

No he is trying to say that we should write some fluff that allows people to see different philosophies or ways of life in the angelic host that lets them get creative and make themed armies.

Im starting to wonder if WP dosent like it other than cause its me suggesting it lol.

But seriously, can you give some reasons as to why you dont like it? It would just help us develop the idea further i feel as your input on the topic is very important.

GS

one thing i see is that no complained about the fact that we are demons at all so i think everyone has accepted that facet but the out of the 3 ideas that RG presented to H&A #3 is the most preferred out of all of them. the thing about it is that it makes us not creatures of law but just creatures made to protect the planet.

also if we are creatures of law then we can't use magic in the plain sense that magic is chaos no matter what you do with it; magic will be the from the winds of chaos.

DA, we've already discussed this, we do not use "magic" as from the winds of magic, it is power generated by the angels themselves that they use to manipulate their foes.

Well somehow I doubt that the angels could produce energy that imitates the winds of chaos. What would even cause that, don’t say because we came from an old one because they cast magic like the rest of the mages in the world.

Also if we are demons of law we need one more thing an emotion that we are attached to that created us.

It is not magic. It is something else. Like a mental power that they have that allows them abilities others do not have.

But where does it come from that’s the issue. Ok it’s a mental power that can be just like the winds; that’s just as hard to swallow as a suppository pill. If it was just our lore then it could be easier to explain

Also we still need an emotion; still we need to know where does this mental power come from?

This is an intresting question raised, if it is not winds of magic, why are we using Heavens and light?

Cant the angels harness the power of the winds but have the ability to turn them into a form of "orderd" magic?

GS

Well high elves are the same way, most are not necessarily using chaos winds in a bad way, they use it because they must. That might be something we have to put. Maybe they harness the winds of magic because they know that their true goal is to destroy chaos and that the best way to do that is to use their own powers against them.