Okay, Baran has said quite clearly in my "Why we all love theoryhammer" post that he thinks Crystal is a big liability in the army. Do we agree?

I think, after all we have been through with it, it has a right to be in the list, but do others share my views? Obviously WP does not but what about the rest of you?

Is Crystal the best approach or do we need another "special" unit idea?

GS

Having sat on the fence for sometime, and hopping over it several times, i am going to say this now, and this should stay.

Crystal is a bad idea fundamentally. It's too weak, does too little, and is badly supported by fluff. Its not an option i see many people (if any) taking and therefore is not deserving of a place in the list.

Okay, this has now gotten to the point where I am no longer supporting nor opposing it. I don't care about whether Crystal stays anymore, as long as these bloody topics arguing the matter disappear! If removing it from the army is necessary for the arguments to stop, then so be it. If it stays, I'm happy to help develop it. I'm not bothered, provided we agree.

In short: not for, not against, not even on the fence.

AoAlgebra :lol:

Ok, to appease AoA, who's opinion I vehemently agree with (although I want to take it to the next step, and ban the faction of the army), we will make a poll about this at noon, SST (-6 GMT, so 6 pm for you, GS).
I do not believe that the crystal faction helps our army rules wise or credibility wise. In the Dark Elf army, there is the "Temple of Khaine," a huge, vastly important cult, that affects the daily life of all citizens. Despite this, there is but one "Temple of Khaine" unit, Witch Elves. Given this example, is there any reason we would like to create basically two armies in our book? We can keep crystal warriors, but we should remove "crystal patron" and anything else "Crystal" in the actual army.
---Baran

You're forgetting the Cauldron of Blood, Baran.

On the issue of Crystal, I basically agree with what's been said- I don't really care one way or another on the issue, seeing as we've all gotten to the point where we keep bringing it up and stating how it's poorly supported by the fluff, I say we go ahead and just drop it so we can move on with getting this list finished. That being said, please view my new topic in the fluff section where I will discuss what I think needs to be done now that we've come this far with the army.

Emm...not to mention Assassins, Executioners, Harpies and the Cauldron. Also, Manticores, Dragons and Hydras are all considered "Beasts of Khaine", meaning we could probably link the Beastmaster to them. While we're at it, I might as well mention the devout worship of Khaine in his Aspect of the Black Cloud, by Shades. Of course there is also the small amount of Magic Items based around Khaine in some way (the Web, Ghrond items, Draich, etc.)

However, this can teach us how the Khainite side of Druchii society has been carefully sneaked in everywhere, and encourage us to make any such theme in the Angelic list equally subtle.

AoAlgebra :lol:

Assassins and Cauldron are part of the Temple, but Executioners, Shades, Harpies, and all the beasts you mentioned are not actually linked to the temple directly- they all are simply representative of the many faces of Khaine.

I've just had a thought.

Okay, i dont think the concept of Crystal is a particular well supported one, but i think to have some sort of "group" in the army (akin to Temple of Khaine) would be nice to expand the fluff.

I really liked some of the iconography on Rogues weapon designs in realtion to dragons, should some sort of "Dragon Cult" be an option to look to?

GS

Clearly my point was that we should get rid of the "crystal" part of the army and add an appendix list if we choose to continue with the fluff, similar to that of the Corsair Raider/Slaver thing in the DE army, not the Temple. Duh. Can't you guys read?
---Baran

yes I can read, but I feel like that thread I posted seeped over to here some how.

Alright, I vote to drop the crystal for now.

Drop it untill we have totally finished and are pleased with the list, Then consider whether we need them or not.

If I post a ton of suggestions, then go away for a while, will the list be exactly how I want it?

I have been against crystal since the idea came out or I joined, not sure what happened first.

Look you can say crystal has no place I the army but then if you take a deep look at the fluff none of the units work together including SOF.

but under the idea of the crystals they stay as in my opinion they can serve as a cause for the reasoning why the entire forest is forever coated in ice, and many other unknowns that we may come across since it is undefined as what it does it is reason for many thing and can be crafted to our purposes. (Note: it won’t be used as some cheap excuse)

The fluff can be changed. We should ask ourselves if, from a rules standpoint, do crystal warriors etc. help the army? Does it make our list different and interesting? The fluff can change, but rules are fairly stubborn.
---Baran

Haha. Dont tell WP that, he dosent like to much in the way of fluff change (well at least when i ask him :lol:).

I agree though that now that i really deeply think about it the concept of a Crystal Angel is awful. I think we should bring them down to earth, they are far to "high fantasy" at the moment. This is simply not the way GW is moving, they are trying to bring the fantasy world into a darker light, it helps poeple relate to it better. This is the path we should follow if we are going to make the list successful.

GS

You mean something like Dark Angels? :rolleyes:

AoAlgebra :lol:

Dark angels will never pass and trying to sent that idea out will make everyone think your creations will be dark as well.

kill the crytal unit if it will make unhappy i just want the frozen forest to stay as kinda of a symbol. the forest itself adds an erie side to the angels.

Ok, hows about a small BLACK crystal forest which absorbs light on the edge of the angels island? no-one knows what the purpose or origin of this forest is, but only that it is of great importance to the angelic brethren../.

and leave it at that? no more, no less.

Ok why is it black?

The crystal forest is a normal forest frozen over with stange crystals. Crystal-like things (mushrooms etc) also grow throughout the forst.

Now with rogue's 3rd sugestion for the angels, crystal will become more distant probably removed anyway.

Crystal still may play a factor... it may act as a living material through which the angels can store their souls should their bodies be destroyed... I just need to figure out how to justify it.

Guys, finish making your points about crystal, so we can make the poll.
---Baran

crystal fluffwise should stay IMO, but as a unit i'm on the fence leaning to that they should stay, only the core unit though the hero choice can go.

i have a new fluff idea for the guard that i'll present some other time.

Well, my point was made long before this topic. If you have been living under a rock for some amount of time I can't remember, here is my point in one word.

NO!

Locked, poll up.
---Baran