OK, I know it looks big and complicated but I think I got every way, shape, and form of Re-Birth in there. Pick a Base Size, a Re-Birth form, One with the Flames or not, and Flaming attacks or not. If you do not post reasoning your votes will not be counted. Please say what you voted for.

flaming attacks (needs more explaning?), 40mm because it isnt strong enough to be a 50mm, 4+ rebirth 1W or death cheaper and better, and one with the flames is a nice addition.

Definately Flaming attacks. 40mm base, as this won't be a mounted monster (right?) and Great Eagles are 40mm. One with the flames is the base contact dmg one right? If so I voted yes for that.

I assume Flying was left off b/c it's "obvious" it would. Also, any fear/terror? larger target? if not flaming, count its attacks as magical? (It is a lengedary fire bird afterall).

I voted for 40mm because it shouldn't be a Large Target, and it just seems 'right'.

4+ for 1 W on Death because it's not so crazy unbalanced, and on a smaller creature, it fits.

Flammable attacks because it's a big fiery bird.

One With the Flames is the Immune to Fire, right? Well, anyways, I'm sure it's not too overpowering. If it's the attacks on models in base, I might have to change that.

can someone pleae point me towards a thread with phoenixes in? i have never heard or seen of them before now. Have they been around long, did i just miss them....

Please?

Erm, shouldn't this have waited until we know what the base stats of the Pheonix are before we started on the special abilities? There's at least 3 different versions in the Pheonix thread and I have no idea which one we are using, if any. Is the Pheonix a big (Griffon/Dragon) sized monster or a smaller (great eagle/pegasus) sized one? Is it a large target? We really need to decide these sorts of things before we get onto the fancy special rules.

I am with Prince. I envisioned the one with a dragon like size as Rogue drew. There are many different pheonix versions in the thread and it should be specified before a poll is started. If the polls are too skewed before you post which stats you plan to use for the pheonix then I will close this thread and repost the same thing again.

I chose basically all the options from Elms one, as i think it is the best of those suggested so far (well, Elms hybrid version of mine :D)

GS

Prince, about the size, I think thats what we are voting on.

ALso, I do think that we should also be voting on stats and who can ride it.

I voted everything for it being a lord-only moster.

Base size is always 50mm.
Re-Birth is 4: 1W, 5: 2W, 6: 3W, becaue it would have 4-6 wounds total.
One with the flames is too weak for something like this, bossibly a template weapon or being able to shoot multiple in one turn.
EDIT: Now that its flame spirit, I say yes.
Flaming attacks, well, its a phoenix, what do you expect?

50mm base because almost all riden creatures are (and I like Rogues sized picture of rider and pheonix), flaming attacks because it is a pheonix, one with the flames (same reason as above), and 4+ come back with one wound after death because it is balanced.

Now I'm confused. Is one with the flame immunity to fire, the ranged attack or the base contact damage?

OK One with the Flames is meant to be Flame Spirit, the base contact damage one.

And I'm going with 50mm as it is a big monster, Flaming attacks and Flame Spirit (One With the Flames), and the more W for a Higher Roll, because if this is a large monster it should have 4 or 5 wounds.

Then take the no vote and make it a yes, I like the flame spirit rules.

I knew I'd scew something up....

This is why polls should be made simpler, people get confused way to easily in this day and age over a few options. I blame TV. And UFO's. And Monkies.

(pours water into steam-o-matic PC) :D

GS

I dont konw what basesize it should have, cant make up my mind... on the other parts, though, I think rebirth on death on 4+ with 1 wound, seems fair. As others has said as well, it is a burning bird, so it should have flaming attacks and burn people

i sugest we go boy style then we cheak if anyone wants a change in it

long extensive but simpler, we will thro win the basics; flight, flaming attacks, and reabirth (most likely 4+ with 1W)

p.s. explan flaming thingy

DA, go look at Flame Spirit in the Sons of Fire rules.

PS- Thanks to the mod that changed One With the Flames to Flame Spirit.

no i mean to the people who dont know what it is.

this could have been simpler if we just did regeneration.

(raises hand to Clavs thanks)

w00t.

Prehaps DA, but does it represent a Phoenix's ability to become reborn? However, it is tempting me....

GS

Do the rebirth options apply to second or subsequent deaths? If it dies, is reborn, then dies again, does it get another go at being reborn?

I was always assuming it could do it once per game, but I could be wrong.

Well in that case:

50mm base because it's a big monster mount, not a tiny eagle-thing.

Flaming attacks, obviously.

Re-birth on 4+ on Death to 1 wound. Nice and simple, gives it a pretty good extra defence mechanism, and fits with the background of a Pheonix. If it's a one off, it's fine, if it happens on every death, it'll need an increased points cost.

Flame Spirit, I'm still not sure what this does, but I'm guessing it's either the fireball or immunity to fire, both of which are ok by me.

Okay, first of all, I have read almost none of this topic :P I'm a little bit busier than previously anticipated, and the laptop decides to bugger up at the most annoying opportunites

40mm, because, assuming that rider is US1, it means it cannot deny ranks with a flank charge.

Flaming attacks, but only if we give it a cool leather jacket with flames drawn on :P I can think of no other way to justify it ;)

4+ rebirth on death to 1 Wound, but only once, seems balanced enough

I agree with Prince on the Flame Spirit

Why don't you guys just go to the Sons of Fire section and read the rules?! It is clearly stated there.

PS- It's neither of the things you thought it was.

Ohh, it's a SoF rule. Well nobody told me! I checked the Mounts post, but I couldn't find anything there, so I couldn't think where it could be.

Apparently you don't read all the posts in the thread either :P

but as to princes question about rebirth it is everytime you die you can come back with one wound on a 4+ for the first time and all following deaths as well.

i think we have it down

told you clavix

Fire Spirit: The flame the surrounds the Sons of Fire is a deadly weapon in its own right, scorching any, enemy or ally, who comes too close. Before all other attacks our made, including before Always Strike First magic weapons and chargers, every model in base contact with a Son of Fire (except other Sons of Fire) takes a Strength 3 flaming hit. Any wounds caused count towards combat resolution as normal.

i still think that shooting fire would be cool

Okay, can someone please write up a summery of the rules we have voted on before i get a hernia, or have a heart attack?

GS

DA, that's what I've been saying it is the whole time.

Ok, DA's rule of flame spirit is correct. As for rebirth it is each time he dies he can come back with 1 wound on a roll of 4+. That is how rebirth works for necrons and fluffwise it also makes sense. A pheonix would not only be able to come back once (look at Harry Potter for instance). It might need a points increase but not a heavy one because it is only coming back on a 4+ with one wound. The only other suggestion that I can offer to the rebirth rule is that it dies and the controlling player makes a roll at the beginning of their next turn to see if it comes back. This allows any unit that it was in base contact with the chance to get away before it rebirths. This is how necron WBB rolling works as well. If they die in their controlling players turn then he rolls at the beggining of his next turn, and if they die in the opponents turn then the controlling player also rolls at the beggining of his next turn. This also helps to balance victory points as if in the last turn the enemy kills the pheonix it won't be able to come back and therefore lets the opponents have the victory points. This is my interpretation of the rules, and I think that it helps to balance the rule quite a bit more. Tell me what you think please.

Big problem with that IST is the possible separation. For example:

Pheonix dies in opponents close combat turn.

Rider runs away at the end of the combat.

Pheonix is reborn successfully in the player's next turn but is now separated from the rider. This then leads to rules for remounting and stuff which is one of the reasons a lot of people don't like the idea of testing every turn if it fails the first one. I think it's just easier in this case to make it an immediate test. Essentially a ward save.

We could just say that it rebirths under him or something (like he carried the ashes with him or something. I just thought that it helped to balance out the rebirth roll after each death.

I'm liking IST's ideas here, they make sense and seem fair with proper points adjustments.

Hey nice idea. I'd never considered the fact that he could carry the ashes/egg with him. If we say that it does always get reborn under him then I'm all for waiting until the next player turn as a limiting factor.

yes, I like under him at the next player turn. How about after the move phase as an extra limit? Thay may be too much.

I'm glad that most of us agree on something here. I think that just at the beging of the controlling players next turn is fine.

(comes along to burst IST bubble)

NO! Wow. That would be so confusing. Imagine if there was not a large enough room?

People PLEASE we are going way way way over the top with these special rules, can we just keep it simple so we are not shot on the spot when we publish this. Look at the Bretonnian Hippo, its simple, effective and pleasing to use but it dosent have all these crazy rules!

Stick with rebirth, 4+ as soon as it dies, if it comes back Angel player smiles and does a little dance, it if does not, tough cookies. The suggested rule from IST means that we have a Cherubim running about with 200pts in his pocket.

Even then, what happens if the Cherubim dies? I would love to see an understandable fluff reason for the Phoenix to come back then...

I think we are going way to OTT on rules here, we should be trying to streamline what we have and the moment we get this phoenix out of the way i would like to see us concentrate on getting the rest of the army perfect.

GS

Yeah but Hippogryphs suck, Pheonix is uber pwnage B)

You could make it so that if the Cherubim dies, while he's carrying the ashes/egg, the pheonix dies without a rebirth roll, but I think that would definately be getting too complicated. It is only a mount creature after all, and even big, bad dragons don't have anything really complex. If we don't mind making it a bit fancier than normal then having to wait would be a nice addition, but if we're keeping it simple, I suppose a regular ward save style thing is the way to go.

Or possibly regeneration even if hit by flaming attacks?