Well, I was working on Sketches the other day, and I was becoming quite excited, because I would finally have the opportunity to do a beautiful picture of the Silver Knights and Crystal Drakes. I also was getting hyped over the Nova Dragon, because, let's face it, I wanted to draw an angelic dragon, and I believed I could pull it off.

So I sat down, and drew my blades for the angels, adding dragon motifs to them. Upon posting them, however, I was met by a rather unpleasant message- we had removed the Dragons from the list. I was a bit dismayed, but I figured it was no big deal, so I decided to carefully look over the compendium... I can honestly say while I'm still a fan of the army, I'm still a bit disappointed, over more than just the dragons, at that. Now, I know a lot of you probably voted these things out, but I'm a member of the site, and as such I feel I have the right to at least bring my point to light, and argue it probably, so here it goes:

My main concern about this point is that we are being a bit too closed to the fact that these are not the judeo-christian angels of our religions, but a race in the warhammer world. Indeed, in a few of the topics I've read, the logic for the removal of units, or disapproval of fluff has often been along the lines of "doesn't fit the Judeo-Christian theme we have going". What's worse, often the objection is "I don't like it, doesn't fit MY idea". While I realize in all cases we have probably voted, I cannot help but wonder how well done these votes have been. That is why I'm brining these issues up.

1) Weapon Selection: In a word: huh? I'm just curious to what happened to cause the arsenal angels could choose from to decrease so rapidly. Granted- items such as flails are a bit out there, but, what happened to bows and, more importantly, Great Weapons?

If the logic for the removal of bows is due to the fact that we wanted to gear the army for no shooting, I suppose I can understand that. I would think that a few angels would sooner or later think "hey, I can fly, and if I make a bow, that could be a realy boon to our forces". Therefore, the logic for the lack of bows would have to be that our army is strictly against it. My question is why? The angels just seem like they wouldn't be opposed to something like a bow. Maybe the argument is that the sons of fire cover our ability to hurl missles at the opponent, but honestly, they're a rare option, so they don't really cover that adquetely. Maybe a scouting unit (see #3 for more discussion of scouts).

The lack of great weapons for our lords is of greater concern. What's wrong with giving great weapons to our top angels? I think that having a S7 lord would be kinda nice, so I had something to smash chariots with. Also, I had some really nice, graceful designs for Great Weapons in the works, and it upsets me that I can't incorperate these weapons into the army. they may be heavy and cumbersome, but I think that the Heroes and lords would give the weapon a chance, seeing as they have milennia to figure out how to wield such a blade. Lastly, this would give the angels a weapon upgrade other than the swordstick (Honestly, who is going to choose between an additional hand weapon or a halberd when they can have BOTH?)- we need some more weapons in the arming department.

By limiting our angels to Halberds, Hand weapons, and Swordstick, I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

2) The lack of mounts, monsters, things that aren't 100% angelic. I know we're the angelic host, but... all infantry? Really?

Granted, Crystal Drakes and Nova Dragons are not angelic- but do they need to be? I mean, like I said, we're making an angelic army, but that doesn't mean it has to fit perfectly into our real world conception of angels- Deamons, after all, show a bit of originality on the part of Games Workshop. By not allowing our angels any form of mount, I feel like we're taking something from the list that so many players love. It's not herohammer anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't like fielding a ridiculous model every once in awhile.

Of course, to counter my own argument, given the point costs of our lords, it would be a bit ridiculous to give them something so costly, as half the army would suddenly disappear. Also, it would definately be a POWERFUL combo- maybe a bit too powerful. Perhaps a decent solution would be to offer some form of interesting mount that is cheaper, but allows for a beautiful centerpiece to the army? I mean, it sounds a bit far fetched, but so are Anvils of Doom, Scrap launchers, pump wagons, giant rats, juggernaughts... the list can go on. Perhaps I could make a few concept sketches and convince you all that it wouldn't be a horrid idea to have something a bit bigger than an angel (and no, I'm not counting the powers) to the list? MAybe a mount wouldn't send our list to the depths of chaos, but may add some original flavour that WE came up with without consulting the common world religion for a bit of help... all I see at the moment that are really original are the rare choices, and the sons of fire honestly don't seem that original to me...

3) Lack of scouts...

Alright, so we have no cavalry-esque units- no fast cavalry and the likes... so this begs the question, how do our armies ever scout ahead? Are we just going to explain this fact that has been present in warfare for the past 5000 years with "oh, they're magical, they just sense EVERYTHING". While I think this certainly is resonable to a degree, there's a point it becomes ridiculous- I don't think angels should be so sensitive to everything in the world. If that isn't the logic for not requiring scouts, I'd like to hear the logic. The armies of the Angels would have to employ some scouts now and then to help them out. We used to have some, why did we take them out? I think our list could make scouts without making them too powerful.

4) Lack of rare options

I like the rares, but I feel they're all very redundant- choir- magic shooty; sons of fire- magic shooty; senalim- bit magic shooty... is there any way to change this up a bit?

That's all I have for now. Before I get dunked in a vat of cheese for bringing up what are probably old topics, please remember I've been gone for a bit, and more importantly, I'm just bringing up some points which I believe should be addressed. After all, the members with the ideas that are our their deseerve a voice too :P

Rogue, I agree with you so much on the cavalry and the mounts and such aspect, its not even believeable. I've been a proponent for white knights (precursor to silver drakes) since the beginning and support drakes still. I also created some flying terradon like thingies, that were also shot down. BRING THE CHARACTER BACK INTO THE ANGELS. Bows were gotten rid of, because we felt that they overpower the army. Super-maneuverable, strong AND shooty? Not really that balanced (sort of like Woodies, but we have armor). Anelai are supposed to be our scouts, but we could do with another, I guess.
---Baran

oh duh, the Anelai, I forgot about them.

Alright, that covers the scouting issue then. The reason I didn't bring that up was due to the fact that, well, they don't really seem like scouts- I just have trouble envisioning them dropping down from above in heavy armour and wielding halberds- I'd picture them in lighter armour and using a weapon such as spears (I challenge anyone to draw an angel in what they consider heavy armour wielding a halberd just dropping out of the sky near some unsuspecting unit)... that being said, I'd like to argue that point later, and focus on these for now.

As for the shooting aspect, given the manuverability of our angels, has anyone considered a unit of beings that uses Javelins? Just letting the mind wander.

Some intresting points you have raised here Rogue. I agree with you on the point on some sort of centerpiece for the armie as a mount, but WP is dead against anything of the sort and the Nova Dragon & Silver Drakes were dropped largley due to his "opposition" to them.

I was thinking of somthing along the lines of a throne for a Cherubim, as it seems to suit Angelic Style to carry there leader in on that sort of thing.

Angelic weaponary i am undecided on. I would like to see your sketches of "graceful" great weapons very much.

I dont think scouts would be a bad idea but normally scouts have some sort of shooting option along with them, i cant see having a scout unit with huge muscles pummling the enemy in cc. It just dosent fit the image.

Good points
GS

As I said, however, is that this is the army of a combined effort. If the majority are against any form of mount, that's understandable, but if it's just a few, I think we really should consider this option. So far, I've seen no one post give me a strong point not to consider the Angelic forces.

Nova Dragons were cool, but after one update they just vanished without a trace. I liked the idea of Dragons helping the Angels, as they are one of the few races around before the coming of the Old Ones.
Silver Drakes were nice as well, though they did get voted off. I think they would be some good-looking models though, with two pairs of wings, one feathered, one reptilian.

On points 1, 3, and 4, I agree with you. However, I don't at all on two. The mounts were removed because nobody could explain why flying spiritual beings would ride on flying material things. It's not like they need a meathod of transportation...
Both Silver Drakes and Nova Dragons were voted out. As far as the rest of what you said goes though, I agree.

Just because you ride something that has to capability of flight doesn't mean that's the only purpose for it. If the ONLY purpose for these beasts for flight, then why would every elven race raise a creature as difficult as dragons when they have Eagles and Dark Pegasi to ride? Why would the empire and the Brettonian go through the risks of obtaining and rearing Hippogriffs and Griffons when there there are Pegasi that are probably at least a bit easier to keep under control? The flight aspect is no doubt a very useful skill, but there are other qualites such mounts would posess: Power and prestige.

First and foremost, the rearing of the more powerful mounts in each army is for just that: They power they possess. The Dragons of the old world are capable of breaking the backs of many of the units you can throw against them, and this is generally the biggest point of admiration presented in every book that give its army access to dragons- it's sheer power is the beauty of the beast.

Second, these beasts are seen as a sign of prestige, not only indicating the rank of the person riding such a beast, but also the power of that society. Imagine a soldier on the battlefield, seeing an angelic host descending, in preparation for battle. You'd be a bit antsy, certainly worried, but... you think your forces can handle them. Then suddenly the ground shakes, and you see an Angel atop a noble, yet fierce beast join the ranks of the Host. To see your opponent bringing something to battle that would be so difficult to rear, so difficult to break... not only does that speak to the power of the individual riding the beast, but also the entire society for their ability to either commune, or break such a beast (in the case of angels it would be commune, I suppose).

The flight aspect is rather trivial to me, honestly.

Why are so many people agreeing with the us needing a mount now then? I just find it odd they were voted out in the past, and some of the most consistant members of the site are voicing an opinion that they would like them in the list...

I don't know, because they keep changing their minds?

I follow your argument, but I'm still not sure I agree. I just don't see angels riding on material beings. I think it may be time for another poll...

Good points yet again Rogue, a lot of people were saying that Silver Drakes should be more of a status symbol, but i definetly agree with you about the Nova Dragons now.

mmm, Nova....

GS

i agree with all your points, i could see a angel riding a dragon collest sight ever pure fear would arisehe he sily mortals, though now i can only see a silver drake following an angel around like a pet.

on the thought of weapons we should add in great weapons ther is no reason to no to now beacuse sword-stick adds +1S

for scouts WP said he would give both venginces and Aneli the scout option

for a fighty rare just take silver drakes and make them alone like egals, or make a sehparum(sp?) guard or something like that

Meh. There was never a vote for Nova Dragons, they just went one day and never came back (and I voted for silver drakes, by the way).
As to Great weapons, there were a couple of reason we've kept away from them.
Firstly, Great weapons are overused in nearly all armies. Heroes equipped with a great weapon and not much else are penny-a-dozen, and we wanted to make it so that players had to think more about their choices, and encourage them to try out magic weapons and combos they might otherwise ignore in favour of the de facto great weapon.
Secondly, it seems hard to imagine a suitably graceful great weapon, by their very nature they are heavy and cumbersome, no matter how well-made they are. In fact, their weight is a crucial part of great weapons, it's what gives them their cutting power, the cutting edge backed up by a mass of metal (it's all to do with pressure=forcexarea or something, physics isn't exactly my strong point).
Thirdly, we get swordsticks, which give us a more versatile weapon, in exchange for the increased power of a great weapon.

This brings up a good point about shooting.

What if we made a scout or fast unit of skirmishing angels with bows?

I considered this as one of the options when I had posted, but the only problem I encounter is our weapon choice will almost certain be for the "Swordstick" over any of the other options. So by not including more options such as the great weapon, we're doing what we fear- limiting choice to one weapon.

Perhaps if we made it some many of the blessings could not be taken on great weapons for one reason or another, we'd be able to keep the balance we envision while adding more options for the Angels.

Well ya, any weapon that is designed for sheer cutting power won't be the most graceful weapon to come out of the forges- but if we're looking for grace, should we be using halberds? Pole weapons in general are not very graceful, in my opinion- it uses two hands, and if you weren't stabbing with the head, then you were swinging the blade in rather awkward arcs to get the power out of it you hoped for. also, it's not just the weight of a great weapon that makes it so powerful, but also the length of such a blade- ther longer blade add more torque as you swing it (assuming you're skilled enough to hit the opponent with the top of the blade, and not a lower section). Take the odachi for example: it's not a ridiculously thick chunk of metal, but it had more length than a general sword, adding to it's power. Based on the length of the handle, I also imagine the weapon was fairly well balanced, making it quite easy to swing.



That's the way I see it at least.

Nice Pic that Rouge. Okay, i can see an Angelic General holding one of those, or at least a dominion :D

I think there is a serious problem here, you guys are talking about limiting the option for taking GW, but wont this put people off angels in that they dont have the versitality in that sense of many other armies in the Warhammer World? My thought it yes. I think we should allow Characters to take GW, if a gamer deicdes to be boring and take a plain hero like that let him feel free to. If a gamer wants to be more inventive, thats his personal preference yet again.

GS

Yet another good point- if people are against giving such weapons to our very leadership minded generals, perhaps instead we could offer them to at least the dominions, who would have more of a knack for using such destructive weapons to turn their enemies to goo?

I think that would be a good compromise. By giving them to Dominions it limits there use in the army, but makes them avaliable. It also means that you are likely to see at least three heroes in most games (Princedoms to lead, Dominions to kill and Virtues for magic).

GS

It also gives us access to something that can destroy chariots, which a lot of other armies that are as strength-oriented as our own have... something devilishly holy, at that... oh the combos I can come up with :D

What does everyone think of the idea of only offering the Dominions the option of great weapons?

And that didn't really make sense, because within the Angels there is a hierarchy anyway, and not being human, they are more likely to follow their reason for existence, rather than their own desires and wishes, for power or admiration in this case. At least thats how I saw it.

I agree on Great Weapons for Dominions :P

AoAlgebra :lol:

Yes but an Angel riding a Silver Drake may be more respected by others etc because of the sheer power he has behind him. (Yep, i have a 40 Ton Dragon you dont, you dont lol)

Thats pretty much what i meant with Symbol of Status.

Another Vote on GW's methinks...

GS

Maybe angels are using it as a way to convey their status to their enemies? I mean, if they're not going to get it with your method, may as well make the enemy know how important you are through their understanding :P

Hehe, that makes sense to. Plus im sure the Seraphim would realise the tacitcal flexibilty faster creatures than themselves would herald anyway.

GS

I can definately see Angels wielding swords like the Odachi you showed. Thing is, I wouldn't call that a great weapon by any means. It's just a longer bladed sword, and from the look of it, you could probably wield it (albeid awkwardly because of the length of the handle) with just one hand.

Great weapons as they are in the warhammer world I see as being the sort of thing you have to use with two hands simply because it's impossible to do it with one hand. If any of you have played Soul Calibur (II), I see great weapons as being like the weapons of Nightmare, or Astaroth, massive great things that swing slow, but cause huge damage with each hit. That Odachi looks more well balanced, kinda like Mitsurugi's weapon.

Halberds in unskilled hands will almost certainly be ungraceful. But these are Angels, with thousands of years of experiance behind them. Again, if you know Soul Calibur II, Look at Kilik or Seung Mina. They manage to use pole weapons and look good while doing it.

I can see Dominions using great weapons though. In fact, that's a great idea. It fits with their ethos, they don't care about what happens to them, they just want to cause as much damage as possible to anyone who gets in their way. A bit like the uruk berserkers from The Two Towers, or the sisters repentia in 40K.

Surely they could learn to weild GW elegantly as well then? :D

GS

Before I continue, I'm going to place disclaimer that I've only gained an understanding through practice of Thrust swords, slasing weapons (like sabers), and bows. I have no experience with other weapon types. Most of what I say here is theoretical.

I think it is arguable, however, that a lot of the power in great weapons come from the fact that you can put more force into the blow through using two hands. Still, you point has validity, so I'll back off on that for now.

No human could wield weapons such as those, and therefore I have to consider that to be an extreme exaggeration of the great weapon concept. remember- a weapon like a Claymore or a (REAL) Zweihander (look it up on Wikipedia if you've never seen a real one, though I'm sure you have) would be much lighter than either of those, and wouldn't weigh more than 7 lbs in a lot of cases.

True, but there's a slight difference between ranked fighting and open ground fighting, and let's face it- once an angel gets into close combat, it's going to be difficult to move all over the place like Kilik or Seung Mina.

Granted, they will spread out some in combat, but not to the extent where you could use moves like Kilik or Sueng Mina (at least in my opinion- again I may be wrong). My understanding of medieval combat tells me its was close quarters melee, which just isn't fun, especially when you have two huge wings on your bad and are trying to wield such a odd weapon (could stab your own wings!).

I think it's a great idea myself.

Here's a suggestion. Vengainces are basically little Dominions. So let those two types have GWs, and let nobody else.
Also, seeing as the Vengiances are then no longer good scouts we should make a skirmishing, scouting, shooting Core unit.

I actually rather like that idea... a lot!

However, if we give the Vengences Great Weapons, then I think it would be wise to give another group of angels the swordsticks, just so a common caste of angels use the weapon, instead of only heroes and lords.

Ok. We were thinking "Anelai + halberds doesn't make much sense". So why not give them swordsticks?
---Baran

Okay, I have read through this whole thread here and here are my thoughts on it. I like just about all of the ideas that have come up. I think that it would be nice to give a basic scouting unit bows that adds some small amounts of firepower to our army and allows us to have scouts. I also think that we should have some mounts and be able to give at least some option of a great weapon. I was also gone while many of the changes occur rogue so I know the feeling of coming back to a greatly unfamiliar list.

We could just make Swordsticks the basic angelic weapon instead of Halbards. So angels can upgrade their handweapons to swordsticks for 1-2 points, and archies can trade their two hand weapons for swordsticks for free.

Could do... I like the idea of Vengances having GW as well, but the image is not as cool as that of the dominion, sorry :P

I suppose we could drop Halbard of the mix, and basically what you guys want is the "old" Aneali unit.

Heres an option, if people dont like the "Throne" name for Ark Angels we could call this new unit with bows Thrones instead.

GS

Lots of good ideas in this thread. I'm beginning to come around to the great weapon idea, I found some pictures of historical great weapons on the internet and I could definately see Angels using them.

The one problem I have is that great weapons in warhammer tend to look bigger and uglier than they do in real life, simply because of modelling constraints, they just can't make swords that thin and long without making them too easy to break. If you look at high elf swordmasters, in the images in the army book they use these wonderful looking zweihander-esque swords and look rather stylish. On the models themselves, the swords are about as wide as the models are across the chest! They do look around the same size as nightmare's swords (i.e. they look like they weigh as much as the person holding them) and don't look nearly as good.

Still, I'm sure we'll be able to do something. I'm sure moulding techniques have improved greatly since those old models were released.

The fluff for Vengeances sort of contradicts which weapon they should use. They are, as you said, essentially mini-dominions, and thus should use great weapons as they follow the same tenants of war. However, they are also said to practice ceaselessly, and are amongst the most skilled of the Angels, so therefore they should use the more difficult to use swordstick.

I can't see swordsticks as being a general weapon for even the most basic troops, but giving them to Aneali is a great idea, as with their larger wings they can't use long weapons as effectively. If we take swordsticks away from Vengeances, it also gives us a new caste of Angels that specifically use the weapon.

Anyway, thats all I can think of for now, keep it up guys, I really like the whole reshaping of the list that's going on here.

I'm going to need to rewrite a lot of fluff when this is done. Ah well, I think it's improving the army a lot. We just need to get 1.4 out with all this, so we can finish 2.0.

two things have come to mind is the lack of shield options in the army with the force of basicly an entire halabard army, also we should reduce base sizes to 20X20mm

I think leaving the bases at 25x25 mm is a wise decision- a lot of these angels are as strong or stronger than chaos units, and as a result it's good to keep the angel's bases slightly larger to in part limit the number of attacks we can have made on the front line, as well as giving the enemy a bit more frontage to attack.

Also, and this will probably sound totally selfish, but it gives me a larger "Canvas", if you will, to work on when I start converting units, and maybe even making a few casts so I can whip up a personal army of these warriors (Very wishful thinking, that second part it... would like to do it for wings though, so I don't have to buy every pair).

I am with Rogue on that one. You don't even give a reason for 20mm and angels make much more sense being on 25 mm bases. They are at least as large as lizardmen, and as Rogue said, they can hold their own with many units in the game.

ok ok i got an answer, but i still have no thoughts on how some of the units should be able to have shields.