This story has been deleted by the author.

Hmm. Decently writting, if slightly cliche, but it has some major issues. What fluff are you basing this off of? It seems to be older stuff about the Fallen/Dark Angels, which we got rid of to a large extent. Also, you've misinterprited a lot of things. Here are some issues:
1. What's the time period? The Southern Wastes were cleared and closed before the fall, so they'd most likely be empty.
2. The reasons for the characters' exiles don't really work. Towards Chaos, Angels ARE absolute in their vengiance. They are also pure, except for those poisioned by Chaos in the first moments of creation. Those were anilated by Sephiroth in his final sacrifice.
3. Azezel. We still haven't decided who he is or what we're doing with him, so you need a new daemon. :P
4. Love is considered a very good thing in Angelic society, because it is the only source of new angels.

Finally, don't name characters after yourself. :P I'd never, ever let that into the book. ;)

I'm basing it off of the only fluff I seem to be able to find on the website. If you have outdated fluff still on the boards -- delete it. Who says an Angel not destroyed by Mr. Leatherdaddy can't be turned to Chaos? And personally, I find the story cliche' too. I could make it deeper, more concise, and full of innuendo and foretelling, but then I'd be writing a novel, not a short story.

1. Current time/Post-SoC. Most stories in WH don't include dates, so I don't feel I have to, either.
2. If you had bothered to read the entire story, you would find that Elmacron and Alestariel were banned because of their love. Angels were forbidden to love in the Book of Enoch thanks to Lucifer and several of the rebel angels.
3. Azazel is a GW character aside from being a Biblical one. Look at Chaos Special Characters on the GW UK website.
4. Once again, Book of Enoch. Angels have no true sex. If you decide to draw away from your traditional sources here, I find it somewhat hypocritical that you can't find a suitable name for "Sephiroth" outside of your traditional sources.

Finally, my name isn't Elmacron. My parents would have to be huge hippies. But yes, the names do need to be changed.

well i like it, but its too long to go in an army book.

Agreed. Just not sure what to do with it.

I think it's a damn good story, very well-written, but it's too long to be a one-off tale, and too short to be a longer one. Maybe write some more fluff and make it a mini-story? Sort of like the tale of Tyrion and Teclis in the High Elf book.

There are some major flaws though. Like WP says, Angels won't be corrupted, they will always fight to the death rather than surrender to Chaos, unless of course they were among those who were corrupted at their creation. And like WP says, love is not forbidden amongst the Angels, it is encouraged (read the bit on Angelic Existance here).

No? It comes in handy sometimes.

I don't understand your first comment. As to the second, well, if you can't write a short story that's not cliche...

I didn't say you had to include it in the story. I was just asking what the intended timeframe was. As I said, post-SOC the Southern Wastes would not have any large chaos hoard in it.

Elm, speaking as the site admin, your tone is unacceptable. I did read the whole story, and I understand why they were banned, which is exactly my point. As Prince said, love between angels is encouraged.

Really? I did not know that.

Our angels are gendered. We've changed things, which, seeing as we've been drawing mainly from Apocryphia, seems reasonable to me. As far as the name goes, it's like I've already said: We're not changing the langauge of origin.

And as far as your name goes: Please, you know what I meant.

Can you be a bit more civil from now on? I'm trying to help...
Thanks,
Woodpecker
Finally, my name isn't Elmacron. My parents would have to be huge hippies. But yes, the names do need to be changed.

Ok Elmacron, calm down. Every army has holes in its fluff. Otherwise they would not be open to speculation etc.

Ok. There are some points in WPs post that I can't tell if he is being sarcastic or not but otherwise I agree with him on most of the points. I remember something along the line of soulstones or some such thing like that to make new angels. And the only thing I agree with Elm really on is the name of sephiroth.

If Angels are completely uncorruptable, I have a major issue there. While I'm not a huge fan of this story myself, I do plan to write another one that focuses on what Azazel said in my story: Daemons and Angels are not that different; it's a matter of perspective. As for my tone in that reply, I found out while I was driving that I am currently going through PMS. I think everyone got ripped last night by me. Please forgive. But I digress.

If Angels are immune to the allure of Chaos, then you might as well be writing about seals, or dolphins, or trees, or a bar of soap. WP, you put a lot of emphasis on fluff, and I support that, but my problem here is that if you (you = the site's membership at large) want to make your fluff Angels identifiable with the reader, you need to make them more human.

And humans, if nothing else, are conflicted. They don't know where to turn; what to do next; what is right and what is wrong. To say that there is no chance that an Angel can be corrupted is an absolute that distances the reader from the characters completely. Angels love, you say: so be it. Angels procreate: make it so, Number Two. To say Angels do not lust, however, makes you wonder about the prior two. Do they fall in love based on merit, without the slightest thought of physical attraction? This would make them even more inhuman: it makes them wooden, and without character.

(Edit: I would like to remind the reader that when Christianity began to spread, this very issue was brought up. It was decided that procreation was indeed a sin, hence the concept of Original Sin, but, of course, a necessary one.)

Lust and love, I would argue, are indistinguishable from one another. Lust serves as the initial vehicle for Love, as we are drawn to those that we find beautiful in whichever way suits us most long before we learn who they really are. Therefore, if an Angel cannot Lust, how can it know its "purer" and arguably opposite force, Love? It cannot. And if an Angel Lusts, it can be turned to Chaos through the Dark Prince, Slaanesh.

One might argue that Slaanesh already has some foot-hold on Angelic society beyond their procreation. Angels sing in vast Choirs, defeating their daemonic foes with the purity of their souls... but song, GW claims, is clearly the domain of Slaanesh (GW Slaanesh sub-page on their UK 'Hordes of Chaos' page), as it is an indulgence of the spirit. If "Sephiroth' were to destroy every tainted Angel, he would have had to destroy every Choir as well. This, however, is admittedly an incredible extrapolation, but it leaves the door open for another Fall, and wild speculation.

One of the ways I gather ideas for stories, especially on things considered "traditional" like Angels and Daemons, is to take the standard -- which you are working off of -- and find the inherent holes. When I do, I throw a wrench in it, and make that hole either bigger, presenting the reader with questions, or I tork the wrench and try to seal it with my own solutions. That Angels are absolutely positively uncorruptable is a hole. To say that Angels are plainly good is a hole. To say that Lust and Love are seperate is a hole. To say recklessness is always beneficial is a hole. I've thrown my wrenches in. Now, with your leave, I would like to tork.

Ok, I think we got the idea that they were uncorruptable because they were made by the old ones to be chaos's bane and their sole purpose was to hate chaos with every fibre. It is a good point you bring up about the distancing from the rest of the Warhammer World. The idea of "love" was the angels instinct to want kids who would grow to fight chaos as they do. We did have fallen angels that we may revisit once this initial list is completed and if you want more info on the fallen then you can contact WP and he should be able to draw up some info on them for you.

Okay, your logic has problems. From our POV, angels are VERY different from daemons. Maybe that's not biblically true, but it is here. There is a superficial similarity, but any reader with half a brain can see through it.

Do we want to make them identifiable with the reader? Are Lizardmen identifiable with the reader? Not one bit, yet they are one of the most popular armies. And they, by the way, are creations of the old ones. So are we. And they are immune to the "allure of chaos". And so are we. I don't see the problem.

Have you read the stuff on angelic love/procreation? :huh: It's not physical at all...

And the reader would like to remind you that these aren't Christian angels, as angels don't actually exist in the Warhammer world.

Again, I suggest you read the stuff on angelic love/soul/essence. D'you need a link? It's in the list forum...

Okay, well, firstly that's absurdly circumstantial. Secondly, the angels aren't nesecarily singing. They communicate telepathically and do so in extraordinarily complex poetry. When they open their mouths, the act of talking would sound much like singing. The choirs just speak, that's all they need to do. And singing isn't necesarily evil anyway.

Sorry, I'm confused. You're asking if you can tear apart the fluff? Go ahead if you must, but believe me, I'll be behind you with the drywall and putty every step of the way.

i love the story though they would never make it close ebough to the city alive :D

but WP I quote from you

in a basic sense you are saing the only diffrence between us is that we are stable

i bel;ive that angels can be converted it may not be an easy task neigh near impossible but it can happen probbly one out of a million chance so its not left and right like with humans, but still to those who have lost their light ot see no hope will turn when the offer is given.

we should not comment on angelic reproduction let them assume, the day we will inform is the day they tell us how orcs reproduce.

my one problem wuth the story is the name lucifer for 2 reasons
1.) that is his angel name after the fall it was satin, so we woulden't still call him lucifer (light bearor)
2.) i would prefer to avoid useing that name and satin in any fluff its too genaric(spl?)

p.s. after reading Warhammer books i want Sigmar to be an exiled angel it would make much sense becuse even after his "death" he still protects agenst the evils of chaos and the dead (i.e. twin tailed comet symbol)

Alright. I'm recinding the story; obviously it's based off of things that don't work and it's far too long. It was a good excercise, and I appreciate the feedback, good or ill. This doesn't mean that I don't still have issues. I'd ask for this thread to be locked. I should, as you said in another post, put my dislikes somewhere else (General Discussion). However, WP, I feel you're being both unreasonable and refuse to bend. If this is the case, I don't plan to write fluff for the website again; you're obviously not going to be happy with anyone's work but your own. This is the last time I'm posting a reply to this thread, since all this will be -- yes, in part thanks to me -- a big argument.

When I write a new story, you'll see what I mean. And that's not our POV, that'd be your POV, since I'd be one of us. Read what Azazel says in the story. I think that's a good, short summary. It doesn't matter what your POV is: it's what the Warhammer world's POV is that matters. If an Angel kills people for worshipping Chaos, it's righteous. But what if their children, untainted and unknowing, watch the Angel do it? Obviously, that child is going to think them a Demon: a horrible, inhuman creature that stole the lives of it's parents. That's precisely what my next story would be about. I've already used that story vein for another publication, but with the opposite reaction; a Demon doing 'justice'.

Now your logic has problems. Simply because they are a popular army doesn't mean it's because of the stories in the book; it could just as easily be due to their play style, or the fact that they're also one of the most winsome army in Warhammer. Correlation isn't causation. Not only this, but if you fail to make your reader identify with the subject, you alienate your reader, which is the sign of a poorly written piece.

No, because the way this board is set up, it's hard to find anything. All of my reference came from the recent information that's been posted on 'Angelic Life' and 'Angelic Existance'.

Which is what we're doing here, isn't it?

I would love it if you would. If it's the piece Prince Senalith linked me to, I actually based the story off of that. It says nothing about physical love, which Elmacron and Alestariel engaged in, or even about love at all. It says that the "parents" give up part of their essence to make a child, and the three have a "strong bond". The word love never shows up, though you could stretch and infer it.

According to GW, it falls under Slaanesh's domain, so yes, it is by nature evil. It's indulgence. Poetry as well: all art is His. "Known under a multitude of names, including Shornaal and Lanshor, the Lord of Pleasure is patron of all things beautiful and seductive. Master of excess and creative power, his realms of influence include music, art and passion. -- GW"

I'm telling you, not asking you, that I find story ideas by looking for holes in the fluff and filling it in, or by asking people to question what they think they know. Now, obviously this story was created without the knowledge that this hole has been filled, though I'm obviously not keen on the solution.

Point taken. I think that's an understandable request, for the same reason that I hate "Sephiroth". I agree that it makes it trite, and yes, "Elmacron" would likely not have said 'Lucifer'.

I'm not going to lock this thread as I think there's an interesting debate going on. Sorry, but I'd need more reason. GS and I were quite a bit worse before I locked that. :P

By our POV, I mean the site's POV, because outside of you, I'm quite sure nobody thinks of angels as being like Daemons.
As far as your next story goes, okay, you need to read this and this before you do any more writting.

I don't really see why the reader needs to identify with the characters. They just need to like the story. Look, I play Lizardmen mostly because I love the fluff. And I certainly can't relate to the characters, because they are incredibly inhuman.

Nobody else has problems with the board layout. Did you read the Seraphim Guide when you joined? I believe a PM should have been sent to you with a link...

Sorry, I mistyped that. When I said Angels, I meant Christianity.

I'm not sure if you've already read it then. If you have, you need to do so again and post your issues with it before writting contradictory fluff. The link is above, obviously.

Okay, whatever. I don't see poetry in that, but singing doesn't have to lead to chaos. Angels are uncorruptible, so I don't see the problem.

Satan is Ashshaitan.

Woodpecker

Can you put all the current fluff in a separate thread and pin it, please? that would make things easier.

Okay, im very sorry (i can only glance over this quick cause of revision) but i havent been able to read the entire story. I read some of the discussion though, and i have to just question one point which WP brought up.

Unless im only getting the wrong end of the stick here (hopes im not... :P ) the southern wastes are not (and cannot) be empty. GW official fluff makes it very clear that it is full of the Daemonic (HOC book if i recall correctly)

And, orginally i did create the angels with the idea of anti daemons (and so similar in some respects, 1.0 had instability in the armie).

It sounds like it is a good story, and when i get over 5 mins of break, i hope to read it :P

GL
GS

If you refuse to lock it, then I refuse to shut up. Maybe I'll even manage to escalate it to the point where you do lock it.

1. WP, both GS and DA have pointed to similarities and original reasons as to why the two are similar, and on a more basic level then I was talking about. Not only that, but DA posted prior to your response, so you're blatantly wrong.
I've read the first post, but not the second.

2. If you don't understand why, don't expect your stories to draw any strong emotions from the readers. They'll be lacking.

3. Apparently, Haktar does as well. Again, untrue.

4. Gotcha.

5.

In that, where is the word love? You could just as easily have made a law for the Angels saying "once you are one hundred years of age, you will share essence" and they'd just do it. There's absolutely no mention of emotion, and certainly no mention of love. Just "the strongest bond imaginable", which is presumably because your left hand wouldn't cut off your right hand out of spite.

6. Poetry is art -- I shouldn't have to explain why it is. The problem is your fluff is null in the face of GW's. You're contradicting an existing body of lore.

And #7 does not apply to me, or to you WP, so meh.

haktar does what as well? i'm a little confused here are you for or against anything ive said, cos i havent said much...

Attempting to get a thread locked will get you banned. It's happened before, believe me.

1. DA is obsessed with the idea of Dark Angels (look at his name) and always has been. He's also been outvoted many times. I don't see where Hak contradicted me, and neither does he...

2. I do understand why we would want that. I've been writting for a long time. I just don't see why we should in this case. Angels are NOT human. They are very inhuman. I'm sure I've got a page on that in those threads.

5. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you try and make that a bit clearer in general? It's hard to argue when you keep changing your points...

6. In that case, screw GW, because that's absurd. Where's that quote from? Worshipers of Slannesh? Witch Hunters? No matter what, you're making an absurdly curcumstantial claim. Just drop it, or I'll get really philosophical.

that has to go in a sig;

still cant spell writing though!

sorry. back to the point, WP, i never said i had contradicted me, im trying to clear up wht Elm meant when he said that about me "doing as well".... im just curious, i dont actually CARE! sheesh!

Ummmmm.........WP what in the world are you talking about Dark angels are not controlled by the chaos forces they just have black wings (gasp that makes them chaos); a chaos angel has no relation to a dark angel save for the fact that they are both angels. on another fact I am not obsessed with them if I was then I would still to this day posted a huge rant and speak on and on how they should be in the army (like you did to the drakes) but no I let it go and I even told some one that dark angels wouldn’t work and encouraged them from trying.

yea but so what if they are inhuman do they have emotions because if they don't then we cant write any stories because emotion is a vital part in writing any kind of story remember emotions make us human.

WP you havent writen alot from scrach mostly it came from Princes seeding ideals

Angels can only be croupted if they will it to byt for that to happen they must remove their shells showint their true energy form so chaos cant courupt us unless they will it.

i say we need Chaos angels it gives us a more terrafying opponet those with the light and darkness are truly more fearfull than those who are just deamons (it makes good fluff)

WP you I don’t think you understand her (maybe its the blood red rage), she’s saying that if you are not going to lock it she is just going to continue this debate and maybe just maybe you will lock it because the debate has gone too far.

p.s. the person you banned wasn’t he the one who called you a Nazi, I still don’t see how that is bad unless you really hate Socialism, or nationalism

personally I dislike socialism never works ;)

Okay, DA i agree with some of your points regarding chaos angels, i think that to have a chaos version of the angels is a nice contrast to have.

However

1.

-Did you just make that up, because it wouldnt really make sense. Unless the angels are corrupted from there creation, they would not "want" to be corrupted (normally) because they are more machine like. They have some emotion, such as love, hate, but these are all pre-programmed. They dont have a political view as such and do not wake up thinking "hmm, i disagree with angelic society, heck, lets go become chaos". Prehaps a few would do it for power, but i think these would be the higher level ones (the ones who do have some sort of political views) who want to be higher than there apointed place on the hierachy. It would still be an extreme cituation for an angel to do it though IMO.

2.

-Elm's a girl???? argh. There goes my perspective on the universe :P :P

3

-Okay this sentance is gonna send me through the roof.

1. NO POLITICAL OPINIONS ON THE REAL WORLD EXPRESSED ON THE SITE. EVER. (unless admin)

2. Calling someone a Nazi is awful DA, anyone who has a brain cell can see that the are the filth of humanity, and anyone with such political views as the Nazis (eg, a "master race") is absoloutley insane and in my opinion has already condemmed themselves to hell. WP, although i have my disagreements with him is a nice guy and it is completely unreasonable to call him, or any member of the site a Nazi, and it should institue an inseltaneous banning. I dont care for your opinions on socialism and nationalism, nor does anyone else, so dont mention them.

3. No more political opinions after this post from anyone, keep this topic about the relevant post or i will lock it and dicipline any members who i feel have stepped over the line on this.

And, to Elm.

I am sorry, i have lots of work, it is not that i dont want to read your story, i would really like to, but real life beckons and i have to try and support myself in the real world as well as online :P Also, dont try to get your post locked, it just starts a lot
of needless flaiming.

And, to everyone.

Now please try to keep discussion on a mature level, and dont feed trolls. Leave it to the Admin team to deal with anyone who is being unreasonable.

GS

I agree with GS here (funny, we're both admins, how odd). You guys are overstepping your bounds. When it comes to deciding when somebody has insulted somebody else, or when a thread should be locked or someone should be disciplined, we decide. I think I've already made one thread about backseat moderation, but if it's needed, I can make another.

@DA: You just contradicted yourself. First you say you aren't obsessed with Dark Angels (which WERE chaos angels...), then you start talking about how we need them back.
Also, I recycled the Creation Myth. That's it. Insults and acusations won't get you anywhere. Please be more civil. Hell, we should all practice being civil.

@ Elm, please dont put words in my mouth ( i eventually worked out what you menat, oooo around 7 posts back, i didnt say i had a problem with the layout of the board, i just made a suggestion which would make it easier for us all.