I was going to put these guys in the Conclave only, but i felt like i wanted a wider opinion of them as well.

Your guys thoughts?

The fall of Seraphall saw the birth of the Angels into the world. The armys of the angels destroyed daemon after daemon and saved the world from an eternity of darkness. While most of the angels born were draped in white garments plucked from the stars of the the skys themselves, some were born of fire.

During the daemonic invasion the planet itself had begun to bleed great cracks in the earth opened and lava flowed from it burning and destroying anything in its path making for a treachorous battle field at the best of times, when Serapphal fell parts of him landed within these lava flows, and instead of being of pure energy, they were merged with fire.

They were somthing different. Somthing Terryifying.

Although they were no different from any other angel in stature or ability they were a terryifying sight to behold, they could not fight in ranked formation for they feared the touch of each other, so they took to small skirmishing following the armies of angels to battle the enemy would fear there attack more than an onslought of an entire army, for what entity could truly be born of fire that could not be doused?

The sons of fire are prehaps the most active of angelic beings, they banished themselves from Nirvvana for fear they would destroy there fellows and travel the world searching out ancient daemonic beings far to dangourous to be left dormant, or they hunt those fallen angels, who turned against there kin willingly to fight for chaos.

For chaos is what they truly despise.

There body enveloped in fire, along with the wings they are born aloft they are able to throw fire from there hands burning all in there path. The sons of fire are few, but even alone they are a terryifying foe to behold.


-----------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Son of fire-----4----5-----4----4---3---1----5--2---9
Chosen flame-4----5----4-----4---3----1---5---3---9
Unit size: 5-10

Pts: 31pts per model

Special Rules
Terror-Sons of fire cause terror in there enemys.

One with the flames- The Sons of fire shoot fireballs from there hands. When they fire they count as a ranged weapon with the following stats.

Range---Strength
12"---------5-------Flaming attack, Magic attack

In addition all the Sons of fires attacks count as magical and flaiming.

Fire Spirit-The flames that surrond them give the sons of fire a 5+ ward save.

Skirmishers- The sons of fire operate exactly like skirmishers

Angels- The sons of fire are angels in all respects and follow all army wide angelic rules.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here, Baran wanted somthing unusual, he got it.

A skirmishing unit that causes terror. How about that for off the GW template? Well?

Im not sure if to make these guys special or rare...

What do you think of the rules?

Is it rubbish?

Or can/will it work.

I like, I like very much. I think that they should only have 1 attack, or S3, because they are beasts in combat, otherwise. They can't die to shooting, pretty much, and are very good in combat. So we should lessen their combat stats. And maybe make the ward CC only?
---Baran

I think youll find they are very vunerable to shooting. T3? A single hail of bolts will send them packing (or well below half strength anyway)

Im not gonna make there save Combat only. I mean, imagine a bunch of T3 guys with no save running around the field! And at there cost??

They would be the biggest missile target in the game.

I may make em S3 though, but i think that may reduce there combat Proweress a bit to much, maybe reduce the missile to S4?

Ya, thats good. And I see your point about the shooting, but a 5+ ward, and an automatic -1 to shooting (skirmish)? Most troops will be hitting on 5+ or 6+ anyway, but I see your point. Maybe compromise, and 6+ to shooting, and 5+ in CC?
The S3 and S4 are good as well.
---Baran

For a unit this fragile and this expensive i think no one will take them for a 1 in 6 chance of saving them from bullets.

In your game use 5+ save, if it proves to much well knock it up to 6+, hows that?

I don't really know if tehy should cause Terror, that seems a bit overboard. Fear I can see, Terror may be pushing it. Oh and I'll be gone til Friday.

:( noo clavix awww.

Back on topic

Well, the whole purpose of the unit really IS terror. Fear dosent work well unless there combat monsters (like ogres) or they have numbers (like zombies/skellies) which these guys just dont have.

Also, consider from a fluff perspective.

You come up againt an ogre, you stick a knife into it, it probably wont die but it will bleed. Its flippin big so your gonna be afraid of it.

You come up against a son of fire. You try to sticka knife into it but it melts before it hits home. At this point your more than likely to wet yoursefl and run away very very fast.

The whole reason for the huge cost (and it is big, 150pts for a unit of 5!? you can get a unit of 12 ranked up angels for that!) Plus the fact there sepcial or rare (not to sure yet) Makes Terror actually there main purpose. The idea for this unit was to create somthing that you nearly never see, it is so completly off the wall its almost unheard of.

A terror causing skirmishing unit is what i came up with.

I like them, they seem in keeping with what the original list was, which was very wierd and otherworldly. The currant list has been normalised quite a bit so I think these are a step in the right direction.
I personally like the idea of making them melee fighters as well. You fly them behind the enemy lines, terrify some of his units, blast some of the others apart with fire and then smash into the remnants. Thus I propose:
They deal out automatic S3 fire hits in CC to represent their enemies getting burnt.
They deal impact hits on the charge, in a similar vein to the Wings of Fire blessing.

I think with a points tweak they coould become a feared yet fragile unit, something your opponant simply cannot ignore.
Anyway, a rough draft (including the background rewritten slightly):

When the gate of the Old Ones opened and the raw power of Chaos flowed through for the first time, it rent apart the world. The thunderous crack of the gates opening was heard in every corner of the globe. The sheer force of Chaos bursting into the world sent out shockwaves that tore up the earth, levelled cities and raised mountains. In some places, and especially around the gate where the waves were strongest, the ground itself split open and boiling lava blasted into the sky, creating great rivers of molten fire that turned the land into a barren waste. When the great Old One Seraphaal died, his body shattered into thousands of fragments, which formed the Angels. However, when all but the last Angels were formed, the newborn warriors of light saw a shower of shards falling straight towards one of the great rents in the earth from which the first spewed. The Angelic host let out a cry of dismay for their lost brothers, for they believed that not even the power of an Angel could withstand the burning heat of the earth.
Yet even as they greived something emerged from the fire. An angel, his wings and body seeming aglow with fire, flames licking across his form. The Angels cried out, for they believed him to be in terrible pain. Yet he uttered no cry, and one by one, more flaming angels emerged from the fire, blazing beacons hovering above the battlefield.
Then, they let out a roar, and with a thrust of their arms, they hurled burning fire at the Daemonic hordes. The minions of chaos shrieked as the Angelic fire burned their bodies, and a rousing cry went up throughout the Angelic ranks, as the horde swept forward to engage the Daemons. The firey Angels also threw themselves into the fray, burning up hundreds enemies with a mere touch of their flaming hands.
After the Daemonic horde had been routed, the firey Angels stayed with the others for a time, and among them they become known as the Sons of Fire, and were afforded great respect by all the Angels. They always remained enigmatic about the origin of their gift, saying only that they were Sons of the Great fire who had granted them his blessing. What they meant by this is still debated amongst the Angels. Yet although they were held in high regard, the Sons knew that the flames that covered their bodies were a curse as well as a blessing, and if they stayed it would surely only lead to misery and death, for their powers made them especially self-conscious, and they dreaded the fact that they might one day cause harm to their fellow Angels. So the Sons of Fire left the shining city to wander the earth, seeking out Chaos in all it's guises, a task they continue to this day.
In battle they are a fearsome sight, borne across the skies on wings of fire, hurling flaming blasts at their enemies before smashing into their ranks in a blazing inferno of death. Wherever they tread, the minions of Chaos tremble, for their hatred of the great enemy burns as bright as the fire that covers their bodies, and they will not rest until they consume the taint of chaos and burn it to ash.

Special
Sons of Fire
---------------------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Son of Fire--------------4----5-----4----4---3---1----5--2---9
Chosen of the Flame-4----5----4-----4---3----1---5---3---9
Unit size: 5-10

Pts: 40 pts per model

Special Rules
Terror-Sons of fire cause terror in their enemies.

One with the Flames- The Sons of Fire hurl fireballs from their hands, incinerating their foes. This counts as a ranged weapon with the following statistics.

Range---Strength
12"---------5-------Flaming attack, Magic attack

In addition all attacks made by Sons of Fire in close combat count as magical and flaming.

Flaming Shield- The flames that surrond them burn up arrows and melt bullets, while in combat an opponent will often find himself unable to strike due to the flames that cover the Sons of Fire. Thus they have a 5+ ward save.

Fire Spirit- The fire that surrounds the Sons of Fire is a deadly weapon in close combat, burning their opponents. before other attacks are made, every model in base contact with a Son of Fire takes a S3 flaming hit.

Wings of Fire- When they charge the Sons of Fire are terrible to behold, they smash into the enemy in a blazing maelstrom. When they charge, each Son inflicts a single flaming impact hit at their basic strength.

Skirmishers- The Sons of Fire are skirmishers.

Angels- The Sons of Fire are angels in all respects and follow all army wide angelic rules.


Whaddaya think? Very powerful in both shooting and combat, but terribly vulnerable, especially to magic. I really do like the concept and I think that with tweaking they would make a great characterful addition to the army.

On a side note, how about a Sons of Fire hero? With all the same rules but better, and he can only join other Sons.

We already have the dominion, we don't need another one. "Lets make a power hero. And a vengeance hero. And an arch angel hero. And, the best one yet, a chior hero!" Thats all we'll hear. Prince, I don't like yours. If they are that good in combat, you won't shoot with them. To compensate this, we'll make their shooting more powerful (and a points raise). Then they aren't powerful enough in CC, and we decide to can the unit. Lets make them have 1 attack, at S3, and in CC, every model in BtB take an S3 hit automatically. Ok? And GS, I'll do just that.
---Baran

I really like them, quite fluffy and original and also very fun. I will definatly have to look into these in much more depth in the conclave. On the idea of a character for them, if you want to make up some rules then give it a try but for now I would stick wioth just the unit.

ok i like them but i dont like the impact hits nor the flameing combat hits
and reduce them to one atack they are more of a archer unit not combat

no hero sounds silly but if you have units changed into fire entites cant you have units with a darker apperance

Um, DA, for once an for all, Dark Ones are pretty dead. MAYBE we'll bring them back, but it is as unlikely as me becoming admin.
---Baran

Dont be so harsh Baran. If you washed your Ewok hair once in a while, who knows what you could achieve! :P

Oh, and Baran, dont touch my topics unless i say you can. I edit them myself. You got rid of all the itallics in the prossess of screwing somthing up. :angry:

Okay back on topic

Well, the problem i see is that if you want these guys to be an archer unit then is 12" range not enough?

I think i will reduce there strength but keep there extra attacks.

Im not to sure about the instant hit idea, but it could be incorporated.

I think impact hits would overpower them, when they charge they dont have the power or strength of a hero or lord, or ogre even so i dont think that would be very appropriate.

Well, we are missing a cheap hero from out list, so i guess we "could" have a son of fire hero. I may work on one in a few mins when im high again.

Thanks for the feedback, and im sure if you batter us enough DA your dark angels will make it into the list "somewhere".

GS out.

He is right Baran on not being so harsh. Anyways, I don't see them as an archerlike unit at all because with only a 12" range they use the shots to help weaken the enemy before getting into combat. I like the burning the enemy with a str 3 hit, but impact hits are not good, as it doesn't quite justify anything especially when you already get the burning attack. I am still not sure on the hero, but again if you want to make one we will look at it.

A, I'm not washing my ewok hair for years.
B, I'm sorry if I sounded too harsh, it wasn't intended
C, I think I solved the archer/CC problems in my list. S4, 16" range, with S3 in combat and 1 autohit for every model in BtB.
---Baran

it seems this is another unit that is just plain good at everything. I really like the idea of the unit but it skirmishes, causes terror, good in cc and in shooting, it has to many purposes. I actually think you should get rid of the shooting ability if the idea of them is terror. Because terror units need to charge, and if you cant charge the right thing they are almost wasted (which is actually a good thing if you want a balanced army). These guys can run around and march block get some good shooting and not even charge and be good or charge and be good. i supose there weekness is only having a 5+ ward but they have two many uses IMO

I think you're right about the impact hits, so I'll agree and drop them. They do seem like one of those units that in one game will get shot to pieces on the first turn, and in another will rout half the enemy army. They're going to be hard to balance and assign a cost to as they need to have exactly the right balance of destructive power and fragility.

This is what I came up with for V1.2
Sons of Fire


M4 Ws5 Bs4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld9
Unit size: 5-10

Pts: 31 pts per model

Special Rules
Terror-Sons of fire cause terror in their enemies.

One with the Flames- The Sons of Fire hurl fireballs from their hands, incinerating their foes. This counts as a ranged weapon with the following statistics.

Range---Strength
16" S4. Within 12" it becomes S5 Flaming attack, Magic attack

In addition all attacks made by Sons of Fire in close combat count as magical and flaming.
5+ ward save.
Fire Spirit- The fire that surrounds the Sons of Fire is a deadly weapon in close combat, burning their opponents. before other attacks are made, every model in base contact with a Son of Fire takes a S3 flaming hit.
Skirmishers

Basically, the only new thing for me, was the extra range. I thought they’ll basically charge the next turn anyway, so I made it slightly longer, so they can snipe another unit, rather than the one the they are about to charge

---Baran

I like it. It makes them a very powerful ranged unit, capable of dealing out great psycological and physical damage to everything around them, but they are vulnerable to shooting (and especially magic), and once they get engaged in close combat they will quickly lose out, with the extra attacks from Fire Spirit as their only bonus.
It's hard to give them a points cost, so I won't comment on that.

They actaully are not that powerful in range as how many people are going to take more then 5? And that means only 5 str4 or str5 shots which on average will only hit 2.5 times (long range) and then will only wound around 1.75 times, with saves making it about 1.5 on a normal infantry man. That is not a power range unit, which makes them good because they can't bee an all around good unit.

I'm not sure, but GS and others, do you think we should eliminate long range? So its always short range? For 31 points, hitting only half the time isn't all that good. That is just my opinion though, and I think IST made a good point before, about them not being uber all-around.
---Baran

Obviously I make good points. I think if you say that they never suffer from long range it could work but then thay have to suffer everything else including move and fire and other such penalties. I say that they fire also eliminates the cover bonus of a unit hiding in a wood because it would just catch the wood on fire and then burn them. That is just an idea though.

If we add that, then its way too much rules. I say they ignore BS penalties (including large target and stuff), and we leave it at that. It just doesn't make sense for move/fire, because its intednded to deal with pulling back bow strings and such. They just raise their palms and say tha magic word "Abra Kadabra Kalamazoo (or Alakazam, but Kalamazoo is more fun to say :P". Everyone agree? Good.
---Baran

They should suffer from hard cover and soft cover penalties and other such things but we can say they ignore long range and move and fire. And my cousins live in Kalmazoo close enough.

i like the new unit improvements it makes it more fair and dosent give them too much strength in combat and range also i like the idea of not counting long range modifiers

Baran.......shut up

Ok IST, hard/soft cover, while it would make more sense, it would make them too complicated. We could have them ignore move/fire and long range penalties, and that would be easy to word, but I think thats as far as we can go. We do that or say they ignore all BS modifiers. And they're angels, so they fly and see the enemy hiding behind the rock, so its not like its hard for us to find them.
---Baran

I say they ignor long range and move and fire but nothing else. That makes it worded easily, and balanced.

Okay, IST is right. That sounds easy, and there would be no confusion.
---Baran

its fair and its reasonable because it comes ot of their hands you wouldent subtract for some stuff

Ive used those rules in a recent playtest (the no penalty to move and fire and long range)

Its just taking an awaful long time to type up.

Good to see you like them.

I really enjoy being spontaneous. Yay Sponteaneous!

I agree with everyone's points except Baran, because his Ewok hair makes me flee 3D6 every turn and i cant stand and shoot.

Actually, i have just been struck by inspiration!

Mwahahaha!

With a range this short, I'd consider having them follow the rules for throwing weapons. I like the idea though.

I like the idea too, and I am glad that the playtest went well. I think that they are good as is but could take the rules for throwing weapons though they would be more acurate since they are effectivly "fired" from the hands (pun intended).