Seeing as playtests are in demand right now and are being favourably recieved, I played another battle with the Angels, this time against the Empire. Biggest difference is this one is 1250 points, and thus a much bigger battle. This let me take a lot more stuff, such as a magic wielding Abalim and the scouting Anelai.
Anyway, enough babble, on to the armies!

Angelic Army

Heroes

Princedom-------160
Halberd
Heavy Armour
Shield
Blessing of Metatron

Abalim-----------180
level 2
Spellweaver

Core

12 Angels--------167
full command

10 Angels--------137
longbows

20 Archangels---315
full command
halberd

6 Vengeances----162

Special

8 Anelai-----------128
flaming bows

Total: 1249


Empire Army

Heroes

Captain---------------------------102
Shield
Sword of Might
Armour of Meteoric Iron

Captain----------------------------98
Barded warhorse
lance
shield
full plate armour
Sigil of sigmar

Battle Wizard----------------------145
level 2
Dispel Scroll
Doomfire Ring

Core

20 Swordsmen--------------------165
full command

10 Halberdiers Detachment-------70
shields

10 Free Company Detachment---50

20 Spearmen-----------------------165
full command
shields

10 Free Company Detachment----50

10 Halberdiers Detachment--------70
shields

10 Handgunners---------------------80

5 Knights-----------------------------155
full command

Special

Great Cannon-----------------------100

Total:1250


The terrain was as follows, with all left/right directions looking from the Angelic end: A hill in the right of the Angelic deployment zone, a wood in front of the left of the Angelic deployment zone, a wood in front of the right of the Empire deployment zone, and a hill in the middle of the Empire deployment zone.

For spells, I couldn't resist the chance to try out the Lore of Angels, and the Abalim rolled Angelic Blast, Azrael's Protection and Shining Light of the Old Ones. The Battle Wizard chose death magic and got Dark Hand of Death and Steal Soul.

The Angels won the roll-off and let the Empire deploy first.

The Spearmen with their detachments deployed in front of and to the right of the Empire hill. The Angelic archers deployed on top of the Angelic hill. The Swordsmen with Captain and their detachments deployed to the left of the Spearmen, together they formed a line across almost the whole Empire deployment zone, with only 3-4" on either end. The Halberdier detachments were both on the flanks, with the free company side-by-side in the middle. The Archangels with the Princedom then deployed right in the middle of the Angelic deployment zone. The cannon deployed on the hilltop. The combat angels deployed on the right of the Archangels. The handgunners deployed on the slope of the hill. The Vengeances deployed on the left of the Archangels, and the knights with Captain deployed on the far left of the Empire zone, although they were still blocked by the Swordsmen's Halberdier detachment. The Abalim deployed inbetween the Archangels and the Angels, and the Battle Wizard deployed in between the Swordsmen and their Free Company detachment on the right. Finally, the Anelai deployed in the wood on the right as close as possible to the Empire lines, with an eye to taking out their missile troops.

The Empire won the roll and chose to go first.

Empire turn 1
The Empire line advanced en masse, with the exception of the Spearmen and their Halberdier detachment on the right, who advanced slowly to prevent being flanked by the Anelai.
In magic, the doomfire ring fired at the Vengeances but did nothing. Dark hand of Death, however, got through and killed two Vengeances, though they passed their panic test.
The handgunners were out of range, and the cannonball got a good guess, but the shot sailed over the heads of the Archangels.

Angels turn 1
The three combat units advanced slowly to ensure they would get the charge, while the Anelai rushed down the flank past the Halberdiers.
The Abalim failed to cast Angelic Blast and the Empire wizard dispelled Azrael's Protection on the Vengeances. The Angelic archers killed two Free Company.

Empire turn 2
The Spearmen's halberdiers detachment swivelled round to face the Anelai, as did the handgunners. The rest of the Empire line except the Spearmen marched forwards within charge distance, confident their detachments and numbers would win the day. The Spearmen were within 8" of the Anelai and thus lagged behind.
In magic, Steal Soul on my precious Abalim was thankfully dispelled, and Dark Hand of Death failed to cast. The Doomfire ring killed a single combat angel, and the thunderers blasted an Anelai apart. The cannon misfired and couldn't shoot this turn or next turn either.

Angel turn 2
This was charge turn. The 4 remaining Vengeances charged the Swordsmen's Halberdiers detachment on the left of their parent unit. The combat Angels attempted to charge the Swordsmen's free company detachment, thus leaving the Archangels free to fight the swordsmen 1-on-1. They succeeded, but also hit the Spearmen's free company detachment. The Archangels then charged the Swordsmen, and, after some consideration, the Anelai charged the Halberdiers.
My hopes were low in the magic phase as my Abalim failed to cast Shining Light of the Old Ones. He then redeemed himself by casting Angelic Blast on the enemy Battle Wizard with irresistable force, blowing apart the enemy magic user! The archers killed a single Spearman.
In combat, the Vengeances went for 2 hand weapons and killed 6 Halberdiers, who lost by 5 and fled a mere 2". The Vengeances pursued a mighty 12" and crashed into the front of the knights.
The combat angels killed one of the Spearmen Free Company, and none of the Swordsmen Free Company despite dealing out 5 attacks. The Swordsmen Free Company killed 2 angels in return. The Angels lost by 1, but passed their break test.
The Anelai cut apart 3 Halberdiers for no loss, beating them by 2. The Halberdiers broke, fled 6", and were run down by the Anelai pursuing 7". However, one Anelai scraped the flank of the Spearmen unit, putting them in a precarious position, up against full ranks, outnumbering and a standard with only 2 attacks.
In the big combat between the Archangels and Swordsmen, the Empire Captain bellowed a challenge. I was sure he had some potent magical doo-dahs, and didn't want to lose the Blessing of Metatron, so I accepted with the Archangel champion instead. He hit and wounded twice, but the Captain's Armour of Meteoric Iron saved both. In return, the Captain missed all 3 times. The Archangels killed 3 Swordsmen, and the Princedom killed another 2. The Swordsmen lost by 6, broke and fled 11". The Archangels pursued 13" and ran them down.

Empire turn 3
The Handgunners turned to face the Archangels and killed 3. The cannon was still being unjammed.
In combat the Anelai killed a Spearman, but lost by 3, broke, and fled off the table. The Spearmen pursued, also off the table. I chose to use the great weapon option on the vengeances as the Empire knights were very well armoured. They hacked down 3, but the empire Captain killed a Vengeance, drawing the combat.
In the combat between the Angels and Free Company, the Angels killed 2 Spearmen Free Company and 1 Swordsman Free Company. The swordsmen Free company killed 1 Angel in return. The Angels won by 1, causing the Spearmen Free Company to flee, but the Swordsmen Free Company held their ground.

Angels turn 3
The Archangels turned to face the knights, and the Abalim carefully postioned himself so he was within 6" of all 3 combat units. This paid off as I just managed to cast Shining Light of the Old Ones, granting its tasty bonuses to all 3 units. Angelic Blast was dispelled, but I didn't mind overmuch as the big spell had got through.
The combat Angels killed 2 Free Company for no loss, causing them to break and running them down. The Vengeances killed both remaining knights, causing the Captain to flee off the table, while the Vengeances restrained pursuit.

Empire turn 4
The Spearmen Free Company rallied and faced the combat Angels. The Spearmen themselves returned and headed towards their free company. Thanks to Shining Light, the Handgunners only killed 1 Archangel, and the Cannon once again guessed well but overshot.

Angels turn 4
The angels charged the Free Company who fled in an attempt to flank the Angels with the Spearmen. However they managed to get caught, and the Angels pursuit carried them out of the Spearmen's charge arc. The Archangels headed right, towards where all the remaining enemies were. The Vengeances did the same and the mage once again got within 6" of the 3 units. Once again he just managed to cast Shining Light, but Angelic Blast failed to cast.

Empire turn 5
The Handgunners turned to face the Angelic forces. The Spearmen wheeled and advanced on the combat Angels. The Cannon fired grapeshot at the combat angels but only scored 2 hits and 1 kill. The Handgunners did even worse and failed to hit anything.

Angels turn 5
The combat Angels charged the Handgunners, the Archangels charged the Spearmen and the vengeances charged the Spearmen's flank. The bowmen moved forward 5". Shining Light failed to cast this turn, but I did manage to cast Azrael's Protection on the Vengeances, my most valuable and vulnerable unit. The bowmen tried to fire at the Cannon but were still out of range. The combat Angels performed very poorly, despite getting 6 hits they scored no kills, and in return the handgunners killed 1. The Angels lost by 3, but thankfully passed their break test.
The combat with the Spearmen was an absolute massacre. The Archangels killed 4, the Vengeances killed 4 and the Princedom killed 3. The Spearmen killed nothing, and in the end lost by 12! Needless to say they fled and were run down by both units.

Empire turn 6
The Cannon finally showed its worth and blasted apart 4 archangels with grapeshot (it seems that they needed Azrael's Protection more than the Vengeances).
In combat the Angels killed 2 Handgunners, drawing the combat.

Angels turn 6
The Vengeances charged the cannon crew, who prepared for a final last stand. The Archangels advanced on the hill which held the last bastion of Empire resistance, and the Abalim once more got within 6" of all 3 units. He cast Shining Light with irresistable force, but failed to cast Azrael's Protection.
The combat Angels finally got their act together and killed 4 Handgunners for no loss. The gunners broke and fled off the table, and the Angels pursued into the cannon. However, they didn't have too, as the Vengeances easily butchered all the crew.

End result: Angel Massacre. Amazingly none of my units were below half strength, and the only destroyed unit were the Anelai.

Thoughts: Blessing of Metatron rocks! Due to having an entire army of WS 5+, +1 WS usually makes all your troops hit on 2's, and it's quite easy to get 2, even 3 units within the radius. I sometimes think WS 5 may be too much, but then again we are only S and T 3 (for basic angels anyway).
The Angelic Flight and pursuit rules are great. Since our army has no cavalry, this gives them just the right amount of maneuverability and pursuit. On average we're probably as good at maneuvering and pursuing as a normal mixed infantry/cavalry army, which is really great.
Lore of angels is great fun. I really like the spells and I think they really help augment the Angelic list. Shining Light of the Old Ones in particular is a great defensive spell. I just wish I could cast Wings of Light, Azrael's Protection and Shining Light in the same turn, and watch my army charge forward 16" with a 5+ ward save and -2 to shooting :) . The one thing I don't agree with is having two magic missiles, which just seems a bit surplus to requirements. Apart from that I really like the lore, and I think it interacts really well with the Angelic army.



Anyway, I've finally spent myself after typing on for rather a long time, so I'll end this rather lengthy post now. All comments, critiques, strategic advice, rules ideas, etc are welcome as always.

Sounds like a great game! You didn't get too much luck, but your opponent was kinda unlucky there. I agree witht eh angelic lore idea. I really like vengeances, did you think they were overpowered, underpowered, just right, what?
Strategic advice: don't put a standard on your angel unit of 12, drop 8 arch angels/standard and get another unit of 12 angels with M/C. Seems like a great game. What did your opponent think of the balanced-ness of the army? Did he like it, thinkit was cheap, or just weird?
Great job,
---Baran

Nice work!

I think we are playing really bad generals because we havent lost a game!

Okay, on the points you made. I dont understand a few things.

Having the army being Ws 5, if they gain +1 WS they will only have WS 6. Vs Ws 3 Troops your still hitting on 3+.

I dont have a rulebook on hand to confirm this and i may be getting confused and it is your opponents who are still hitting on a 4+, not a 5+. (Your WS needs to be double your opponents +1 to force them to hit on 5's). Ill have to check this out.

Only thing i can see you did wrong is (what i understood the way you wrote it) is that you declared charges individually and immediatly moved the units, which is incorrect. You should declare all charges before moving chargers (and declare charges before rallying troops, then move chargers after fleeling troops have/have not been rallied).

The empire player was very unlucky with the cannon and with the flee/pursuit rolls. (he rolled double 1 when you rolled double 6 how unlucky was that!)

What I was saying was twhat GS said. And it has to be more than double your WS for your opponent to hit on 5+'s.
---Baran

Ah you poor deluded souls...
Blessing of Metatron adds +1 to hit, not +1 Weaponskill, so the Angels who normally hit on 3's will now hit on 2's.

They are both correct there. I think that you did a great job with the army while he got unlucky and didn't have things play out to his advantage for like the entire match. Good game though.

Okay, you did say it gave them +1 WS. Not +1 to hit.

So i am completly right. As always :P

I think the way to solve this is to make the blessing give +1 WS possibly?

This means that against pathetic troops such as Slaves we WILL be hitting on a 2+ while on the average troop, we will still be hitting on 3+.

Or we could change it to +1 S? Maybe that would work?

Erm, I didn't say it gave +1 WS, I said it gave +1 to hit! Silly Supermod...

And there is no way for anything to hit on a 2+ unless there is a +1 to hit. WS10 on WS1 hits on a 3+, not 2+.
---Baran

Now heres where your wrong.

Super Mods are never wrong!

If it ends up we are wrong, reality strangely suddenly warps to make us right :)

Back on topic...

Well, if +1 WS isent going to help maybe we should just make it harder to cast?

I mean, are angels have never lost a game either

A: People are rigging games

B: We have some really good generals

C: We are playing really bad gamers

D: We are playing really unlucky people

Just seems kinda odd we havent lost a game as of yet...

you forgot E

E - the army is too powerful.

yess its strong but it cant face either an DWarf gun fireing line nor a Empire line of guns so thes a disadvantage

In all the play testing you guys have done, your angel army has not lost a game to any army that they have faced?

Does this give you a clue at all???

The army is not balanced. It is obviously over powered and/or under priced.

If you wont listen to the constructive criticism on the Warhammer board, at least listen to your own statistics. Also this Dwarf/Empire gun line weakness you keep going on about, is not a weakness. No army done by GW can its only tactics and the player that can stand against it.

For the army to be balanced, it has to lose about 50% of the time to each of the different races/armies. Losing 0% of the time, just shows that it is unbalanced.

If you guys want this project to work and I do want it to work, you are going to have to pull apart the whole thing and think hard about what really needs to be in the army as well as how strong everything should be.

what he said actually.

so what if your army loses against gunlines.

newsflash so does everyone else!

your weakness is heavy shootng, well what if your opponent doesnt have heavy shooting? wow now you have no weakness.

instead of you guys using this army go and find some random warhammer player who knows nothing about your angels project.

give him the list for 1 hour prior to the game and play against him letting him use the angels army rather than you lot, just see if you think playing against them is as fun as using them.

i know i wasent being literal you cant beat a gun line which means that we can only be be by cheesey armies

If you guys would read the other Batreps, most of the time our guys have just gotten really great roles, and the opposing player got pretty crappy roles, and it's not like we've had 100 playtests all being wins, and remember GS, you lost to a gunline in that tourney, and didn't you draw a time or two? And I believe Baran had a playtest where he lost (against Lizzies or Empire I think).

i know i wasent being literal you cant beat a gun line which means that we can only be be by cheesey armies

Well I guess that your not taking any of this seriously is there any reason for that?

This project is fast becoming a joke, especially with the additude you guys have. Any critisim your list gets, you take it as being "picked on" Your army list has not lost a game and yet you wont take this major hint and think that there is serious problems with the army list. You whine when one person on the Warhammer forum said it was "cheesy" yet you posted it with the additude that everyone would call it "cheesy" and dismiss out of hand any comments that were made at that forum. Well maybe "cheesy" is the right way to describe it at the moment.

Lower the S, WS & I for everything especally the core units. Get rid of all those bloody ward saves, give your scout unit 1 attack, WS3 & BS4 and if you want to keep the choir, make its powers akin to a banshee.

Decide how you want this army to play (eg: magic heavy, small specialised units, fast shock attack, defensive ect) and design it to that strength. DONT make it strong at everything and give it a BALANCED weakness (something that every army could exploit to some extent so gun lines dont count)

If you want to keep the elite feel to your army, thats fine but your units have to be expensive as well as specialised and they certainly cant be the way they are now.

Note that I have solely joined this site to criticize its members, and to be illogical. If I need to explain myself, I'll pm Baranthazul

OK, what are "all those bloody ward saves"? Only a few units (which are special or rare) have them, along with characters.

For the love of god we have NOT won every playtest! GS was exagerating, or just being forgetful, because there have been losses. GS lost to a gunline in a Tourney, that's right, an actualy Tourney, where he took 12th out of 100 or so. He had a Loss and at least one Draw. I believe Baran has lost in a playtest as well. And it's not like we've had 100 playtests, only about what 6 or 7? And in the ones we've won we've had extremely lucky rolls whereas our opponents had some crappy luck.

The Choir does not affect Unbreakable Units and Units Immune to Psychology, it is a typo/misprint if it says otherwise, as GS stated in the GW thread.

Sorry if we're defensive, but you would be too if you were in the same situation. If something you have been working on for months was called a "cheesefest" or whatever that bloke said you'd be a little angry and defensive, and don't say that you wouldn't, because noone would.

One person called it "cheesy" and then went on to explain why they thought it was. Every other person you have gotten defensive with, gave constructive critisim. The majority said that your army is under priced and/or over powered, People have said that the army is strong in every field and it doesnt have a weakness. No one from your group has taken that feedback seriously.

I have actually worked on an army list for months and put it on the web for feedback. I recieved positive and negative feedback about it, I think that someone did call it "cheesy" but most was constructive. Not once did I get defensive or angry at the feedback, I asked why they thought this and I went back to the list and tweaked it. You cant really get angry/defensive anyway, you actually asked for the feedback so you have to cop it no matter if its good or bad and you should never ever ignore feedback especally if you dont like what was said/written.

Your ward saves, too many units/characters have them. Those vengence guys have a 4+ ward save this gives them an even chance of suviving not matter what, thats too much. True its only against missile fire, But chances are they wont need it in combat. You could make those ward saves armor saves and still keep faith to your background, as they are angelic beings they are more resiliant than your average human kind of like scaley skin.

As for your win/loss stats, 2 losses, 1 draw & 6 or 7 wins does not make a balanced army. You just cant explain all of those wins by putting it down to your opponents bad luck, you guys have tried to put the wins down to everything except what is most likely and that is the army is over powered.

i agree with taking critisisms. And the fact that it is a bit bizzar that the angels kepp winning lots.

But in oposition to moon i thinkthe ward saves are the number one thing to keep. I think if anything the strength of the angel army should be the aura that protects them. i.e they should be hard to kill (keep the wards saves). I think personally the weekness should be shooting, (but i dont think they should have none like chaos cause thats silly) therefor they probably need to either be a bit less stat high or a bet less magic heavy. Since GS loves the magic and it is his army i suggest core stats be reduced. This will make the CC in this battle report be alot closer. Especially when the spells are used to add to stats.

That is a good point about the ward saves, it still can be represented by armor saves (you could give an arch angel a 5+ save and say its their heavenly aura, you could even go with 4+ saves and say this.) They would still be hard to kill, but armor saves would help even them out a bit. just dont over do the ward saves.

With the vengences, instead of having the 4+ against missile ward, how about a blanket 6+ ward save and give them weapons akin to wardancers?

I think what you guys are trying to go for with the army is small and elite. Make each unit and character specalize in something.

For example have an archer unit that is really great at ranged attacks but if they get into hand to hand combat the suck and will die. Have another unit that is a strong offensive unit (Vengences spring to mind) but if they get charged, they will die. Then you can have your defensive unit that is crap on the charge, but great for getting the heat off your archers.

With the characters, make them good at magic or combat never both. Try and make the army so each unit/character has to work in unison with everything else. I guess you could Eldar from 40k as an example of what to do and to an extent you could use High Elves.

reasonable idea moon. definately calls for more consideration. What do you think GS? I know that you like the idea of characters being all rounders but the core units????

Excuse what I'm about to say if it offends you, but people like moonglum are exactly the reason why I'd rather jab myself in the eye with a flat-head screwdriver, then visit the GW forums. Ok, let me explain myself. Your arguments don't make sense, as they have no precedent in the WHFB world. For example, HE/DE/Most other f-ing armies do not have a unit that specializes at shooting. The character thing, I kinda agree with you, but so you want us to be a carbon copy of every other army? What about Butchers? Tzeentch chars, and undead chars?!? Also, our angels have 1 higher WS then a 7 pt Dark Elf Warrior, and we cost what, 56% more?
---Baran

So what you are saying is that having specialized unit in your army does not make sense? Remember I did use archers as an example, it was not used as a "put this unit in your army". You are also forgetting about what some ranged units can do.

Empire handgunners shoot with a S4 -2AS weapon, but if they get into combat they wont last long at all. They dont have any armor to speak of, they usually dont get a rank bonus (They need a wider frontage to fire more shots, the wider frontage is a disadvantage in its self) and they are only equiped with a hand weapon so they dont have any bonuses in combat.

Glade Guard can move and shoot without penalty and they get +1S under half range. But they also dont have decent weapons, no armor and have to have a wide frontage.

I dont know about you, but these units sound like they specialize with range weapons and suck at combat.

I think that you would be insane if you claimed that there no specialized combat units.

With you characters, no I never intended for you to to be a carbon copy of other armies. I only went with the theme you guys were trying make for your project.

If you want, combine magic and combat for your characters. But make them balanced between the two, dont make them too goood at magic and dont make them too good in combat. Its enitrely up to you.
Don't double post!
Moonglum
Posted: Sep 6 2005, 04:42 AM
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Oh yeah, about your dark elf/angel comparison.

DE Warriors are under priced, I think that they should be at least 8pts. On the same token they dont have the WS5 as you mentioned or heavy armor (access to a 4+ save), access to cheap ranged weapons (virtually 6pts for warriors and 2pts for angels, angels get a longer range as well) and finally warriors dont fly.

Flying is a major advantage. it allows you to ignore terrain so while DE warriors have to wheel and turn to get through terrain, angels can just fly over it. I cant remember if you double the movement for flyers, but I hope you cant.

Even when you statistically compare angels to High Elves, they still seem quite cheap. The abliity to fly costs a lot more than you think.

I wasnt actually offended by what you wrote barron, I was actually amused by your superiority attempt.

In your first post you compared two basic units, with no special rules except for their equipment. IIRC, all empire guys with handguns get S4, AP, and all WE get no move/fire pen amd +1 S and close range. As we are, I think we could use a little tune up with our characters combat stats. And our fighty chars aren't very powerful in magic, seeing as they pay more then almost everyother army for a level, but if you want to be ignorant, we can make it +160 points per level, and a max of 2 levels. We don't double move for flying, and yes, ignoring terrain is an advantage, but we get 1/2 the shots for 1/2 the points, when it comes to range weapons. I think we are fairly priced, if you want to disagree, then run some numbers, and quantify our special rules. We will come up fairly, I believe. If you want to back up your reasons in more tangible ways, then we will listen. On the contrary, we do not have a normal flight. We basically can't be MB, and we ignore terrain. But, we can't fly over a unit, and I can't remember the last time my M5 guys were marchbolcked, so we basically just ignore terrain. Its powerful, but we can't stay in it, and can only move over it. Its much less valuable then you think. Maybe its more powerful, but please, I say, please go to one of the two following sites:
www.thegreatuncleanone.com or www.s13.invisionfre.com/Temporary_TGUO/index.php
Thanks,
---Baran

In your first post you compared two basic units, with no special rules except for their equipment. IIRC, all empire guys with handguns get S4, AP, and all WE get no move/fire pen amd +1 S and close range.

So I guess you didnt get the point or you didnt want to get the point I was making. Your ranged unit (angels) are good shots, they have a 30inch range but they can still get a 4+ armor save (3+ if they are charged). The 2 units I pointed out to you dont get anything like that. They have good ranged attacks, the glade guard can move and fire without penalty as well as having +1S under half range. But if they are charged, they will die.

The glade guard are definately specialized ranged troops. They are good at one thing, but suck at another. Angels on the other hand are just good.

As we are, I think we could use a little tune up with our characters combat stats. And our fighty chars aren't very powerful in magic, seeing as they pay more then almost everyother army for a level, but if you want to be ignorant, we can make it +160 points per level, and a max of 2 levels.

Just how am I being ignorant? I made one suggestion (Specialized characters), you didnt seem to like it (carbon copies of other armies). I make another suggestion in light of your objection (1/2 combat 1/2 magic characters) and you accuse me of being ignorant. Are you actually looking to make a playable/balanced army, or just a power trip?

We don't double move for flying, and yes, ignoring terrain is an advantage, but we get 1/2 the shots for 1/2 the points, when it comes to range weapons. I think we are fairly priced, if you want to disagree, then run some numbers, and quantify our special rules. We will come up fairly, I believe. If you want to back up your reasons in more tangible ways, then we will listen.

What do you mean you get 1/2 the shots for 1/2 the points? As far as fairly priced, a longbow costs 5pts for troops, 10pts for heroes and 15pts for lords. They are very expensive and charging angels 2pts for one isnt right. If you dont believe me, read it for yourself in the Empire and High Elf armies books.

If you are asking me to work out the points cost for angels, hell Ill give it a go.

On the contrary, we do not have a normal flight. We basically can't be MB, and we ignore terrain. But, we can't fly over a unit, and I can't remember the last time my M5 guys were marchbolcked, so we basically just ignore terrain. Its powerful, but we can't stay in it, and can only move over it. Its much less valuable then you
think.

No you only move 10inches. You cant be march blocked (well you dont march) you can actually go into terrain to use it for cover or whatever (They still have a movement value) that is quite powerful.

You say that you cant remember the last time you were mached blocked, the thing is your M5 guys can still have that happen to them (it still does happen and it is still a rule in Warhammer). Angelic beings cant have that happen to them.

Another point is they can fly over an obstical and charge a unit in 1 turn, while most other units would have to take 2 turns doing the same thing (one turn to move around the terrain and the other to charge) So opponents cant use terrain to their full advantage to block charges. With flying you can also redeploy quicker than other armies and you think flying is not that powerful? Why do you think that GW only give flying to one or two units per army or dont give some armies flying units at all?

Maybe its more powerful, but please, I say, please go to one of the two following sites:
www.thegreatuncleanone.com or www.s13.invisionfre.com/Temporary_TGUO/index.php

Yeah I went to both of them, nothing came up with the second one and the first is closing down, what was I ment to see?

In your first post you compared two basic units, with no special rules except for their equipment. IIRC, all empire guys with handguns get S4, AP, and all WE get no move/fire pen amd +1 S and close range.

So I guess you didnt get the point or you didnt want to get the point I was making. Your ranged unit (angels) are good shots, they have a 30inch range but they can still get a 4+ armor save (3+ if they are charged). The 2 units I pointed out to you dont get anything like that. They have good ranged attacks, the glade guard can move and fire without penalty as well as having +1S under half range. But if they are charged, they will die.

The glade guard are definately specialized ranged troops. They are good at one thing, but suck at another. Angels on the other hand are just good.


I understood, and you’re clearly forgetting dwarves, who, IIRC, get a 4+ save, very good hand guns, and still have T4. Angels will die if we are charged. T3, 12 pt models with a mere 4+ save (assuming using stand/shoot). Angels are a combat liability. That’s what you don’t understand. I play DE, and T3 4+ save does not work. Especially when they are 12 points each.

As we are, I think we could use a little tune up with our characters combat stats. And our fighty chars aren't very powerful in magic, seeing as they pay more then almost everyother army for a level, but if you want to be ignorant, we can make it +160 points per level, and a max of 2 levels.

Just how am I being ignorant? I made one suggestion (Specialized characters), you didnt seem to like it (carbon copies of other armies). I make another suggestion in light of your objection (1/2 combat 1/2 magic characters) and you accuse me of being ignorant. Are you actually looking to make a playable/balanced army, or just a power trip?


Well, obviously you cannot grasp the combat that our cherubim is not a good mage. He is 320 points, bare, with lv 3. Mixed characters aren’t good, due to their incredibly expensive points cost. 200 points worth of combat, 120 of magic, means he won’t live up to his points. You are being ignorant, because you cannot see this. We are obviously trying to make a playable army, but having bad reasons/prescedents for our actions is not helping us.

We don't double move for flying, and yes, ignoring terrain is an advantage, but we get 1/2 the shots for 1/2 the points, when it comes to range weapons. I think we are fairly priced, if you want to disagree, then run some numbers, and quantify our special rules. We will come up fairly, I believe. If you want to back up your reasons in more tangible ways, then we will listen.

What do you mean you get 1/2 the shots for 1/2 the points? As far as fairly priced, a longbow costs 5pts for troops, 10pts for heroes and 15pts for lords. They are very expensive and charging angels 2pts for one isnt right. If you dont believe me, read it for yourself in the Empire and High Elf armies books.

If you are asking me to work out the points cost for angels, hell Ill give it a go.


I’m comparing to DEW, who get RXBWs for 4 pts each. We cost 2, and can’t repeat. Therefore, it is 2 points. If you want to change the price for heroes/lords, then okay. Personally, I think we should drop Angels’ option for bows, but that’s just me….


On the contrary, we do not have a normal flight. We basically can't be MB, and we ignore terrain. But, we can't fly over a unit, and I can't remember the last time my M5 guys were marchbolcked, so we basically just ignore terrain. Its powerful, but we can't stay in it, and can only move over it. Its much less valuable then you
think.

No you only move 10inches. You cant be march blocked (well you dont march) you can actually go into terrain to use it for cover or whatever (They still have a movement value) that is quite powerful.

You say that you cant remember the last time you were mached blocked, the thing is your M5 guys can still have that happen to them (it still does happen and it is still a rule in Warhammer). Angelic beings cant have that happen to them.

Another point is they can fly over an obstical and charge a unit in 1 turn, while most other units would have to take 2 turns doing the same thing (one turn to move around the terrain and the other to charge) So opponents cant use terrain to their full advantage to block charges. With flying you can also redeploy quicker than other armies and you think flying is not that powerful? Why do you think that GW only give flying to one or two units per army or dont give some armies flying units at all?


I was merely saying that my opponents cannot march block my elves, because I have things to prevent them from doing as such. Its called TACTICS. We can go into terrain, but that removes our flight for the time being, which is something people won’t normally do, if they’re like me. They’ll avoid if possible. I think flight is powerful, just not as much as you’re saying. It can do a lot, but we have restricted our flight to take away, imo, the most powerful aspect, charging over units.


Maybe its more powerful, but please, I say, please go to one of the two following sites:
www.thegreatuncleanone.com or www.s13.invisionfre.com/Temporary_TGUO/index.php

Yeah I went to both of them, nothing came up with the second one and the first is closing down, what was I ment to see?

http://s13.invisionfree.com/Temporary_TGUO/index.php
That’s the site, my mistake. Sign up, and post like normal. Join those forums.

WARNING. NO MORE THREADJACKING. THIS IS CLOSED, AS OF NOW


---Baran