Warhammer Armies: Angelic Beings

Far to the east of the Southland’s an ancient island stands in the sea, isolated, alone. Even Accomplished scholars of the world know very little of this island. The only thing certain is that a great monument stands there, homage to times gone. Known to the world over as the Tower of Stars.


Introduction

What are the angelic beings?
-The angelic beings are creatures of ancient times, they have never left there guard from the great Island that plays host to the tower of stars. Here legions of these un-earthly beings stand waiting, watching, guarding. None are too sure why they stand here, but it is believed that they posses a link to the Old Ones, creator of the lizard men, and that the tower of stars is an ancient block that the Old ones created to stop Daemons from entering the known world.

Even though these blocks failed, some speculate that there may be a few remaining preventing the full flow of Daemonic beings coming flooding into the world.

Contents, or what you can find in this army book

-A tale of woe
-The writings recording the first meeting of modern day men with these creatures.

-Army list
-Rules for fielding an army of angelic beings.

-Angelic gifts
A list of powerful gifts that can be given to the leaders of your armies of angelic beings.

-Legends of old
The detailing of the only named Angelic Being in all history, the mighty Sephrioth.

-The war of the Ancients
A detailed account of the ancient century long war were armies of “Angels” came to battle against legions of Daemonic entities.

-A tale of woe. The discovery of these ancient beings.

Only one mortal has ever set foot upon this land, a great voyage that set sail from Tilea, 150 ships strong set off in search of a new world to conquer. The fleet was plagued with bad omens, sea monsters, lack of winds and stranger things. Eventually they reached the edge of the known world and the fleet was swallowed up by a whirlpool of great proportions.

Only a handful of men, including their leader, rouge Tilean Prince known as Karan Khan survived. They found safety upon a deserted island; from here they built a raft and set off again.

This is when the strange discovery was made. Months adrift the group of travellers fished for food, some fell to beasts of the deep but even after all the men had been through they were determined to get home. They finally reached a remote island; here the only thing that stood was a huge glistening tower. The moment the men stepped upon the sand of this island fire swallowed them up. Karan Khan had stayed on the raft rather than to run onto land and witnessed a unique sight.

The only thing known about what he saw is from the hoarse cries he screams in the night “Holy, Holy are the white beings. Beyond mere mortals! Dark the sin of man! Fear them they are beyond us!” Karan Khan returned home a changed man. No longer hungry for greed and terrified of everything that so much as moves. He relates most of his tale wilfully but when asked of his experience on this mysterious island he collapses, on the floor sobbing and screaming the above-mentioned sentences over and over. Whatever he saw must be a sight none of us can imagine.


Army List

When using an Angelic Beings army you must remember to agree with its use with an opponent, the list is not legal. Also try to agree to at least make your opponent have one Daemonic unit/Character in his army, even if it is not a chaos army, as these are the sworn enemy’s of the Angels and in there eyes must not exist in the true world.

-(Note to reader, if any Angelolegists are out there are wondering why the list is so mono and how I have not included Seraphim in the list is that I do not think I can truly justify the strength of the Seraphim and other beings, nor do I want to in the game of Warhammer.)


Lords
Cherubim
The Cherubim are said to be the second highest rank of angel that appeared in the battle of the southern wastes, they are one of the few creatures that there are actually given a description. But these writings shall not be uttered here, they are said to be the strongest of creatures and could destroy hundreds of Daemons at a time with one swing of its holy blade.

-------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Cherubim--6----8-----6----6----6----5---9---6----10

Pts/Cost: - 630pts

Weapons/Armour:- Holy Blade, Angelic robes
May be given up to 150pts of Angelic Gifts from the Angelic Gifts section.

Special Rules: -

Work of Mastery:- The Cherubim is a Level 4 Wizard and uses Lore of Heavens.

Angelic robes: - These robes that the Angel wears are said to be part of the angels body itself shifting and changing to avoid incoming attacks. The Cherubim has a 4+ Ward save.

Holy Blade- As with all Angels the Cherubim wields a massive blade, said to be encrypted with thousands of holy words, they are the bane of daemon and Mortal alike… A holy blade confers a –1 modifier to all armour saves and ward saves, and gains the killing blow special ability. It also makes all of the Angels attacks magical and flaming.

Terror- A cherubim is a terrifying enemy for any to face and counts as causing terror.

Fly- The Cherubim sports massive wings allowing it to take flight.

Ancient Power- A Cherubim takes up a Lord, a Hero and a Rare slot in an army of Angelic beings.

Instability- Like all ethereal beings the Cherubim is bound to his duty to guard the isle of stars, if he is defeated he may lose his grip on the true world and be forced to return to the Tower of stars to regenerate his power. And so, just like Daemons the Cherubim suffers from Instability, as do all angelic beings with few exceptions…



Heroes
Princedoms
While the Cherubim are recorded as being great warriors that none could stop, the Princedoms are said to have been warriors in there own right but they were more in tone with the troops, commanding and leading them to battle instead of leaping into the fray themselves.


-----------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Princedoms---5-----6-----5---5----5----3----7---4----9

Pts/Cost: - 180pts

Equipment- Holy Blade and Angelic robes

May be given up to 50pts of Angelic Gifts

Special Rules: -

Work of Mastery: - A princedom may be upgraded as a wizard at (+40pts) per level, up to level 2. He must use Law of heavens.

Angelic robes- See Cherubim

Holy Blade- See Cherubim

Angelic- Princedoms cause fear

Lead from the front- The Princedoms are always depicted as leading the legions of angels from the front. Because of this it is assumed they are respected beings by the angels. Any Angelic units (that’s the entire army with the exception of a few noted) within 12” of the Princedom may re-roll instability checks. The second result stands even if it is worse than the first result. This power cannot “pile up” with more than one Princedom in range.




Dominions
It is thought that Dominions and Princedoms are two opposites of a scale, while the Princedoms are leaders of the troops Dominions seem to be constantly depicted alongside the Cherubim aiding them in battle, so it is thought that they may have been personal bodyguards or followers of Cherubim.

--------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Dominion---6----7------4---5---5-----3---7---4----8

A Dominion counts as two hero choices

Pts/Cost: - 250pts

Equipment- Holy blade and Angelic Robes

May be given up to 75pts of Angelic gifts.

Special Rules

Work of Mastery: - A dominion may be upgraded as a wizard at (+40pts) per level, up to level 2. He must use Law of heavens.

Angelic Robes:- See Cherubim

Holy Blade:- See Cherubim

Terror- The Dominion causes Terror

Fly- The Dominion sprouts a massive pair of Wings, it can fly.

My masters will is my task- A dominion may never lead an army unless he is the only character in the army, in which case he may never pass on his ld to others in the army. In addition to this the Dominions are utterly loyal to Cherubim, they will never let harm come to them, When in a combat where a Cherubim is also fighting, should the Cherubim sustain a wound the player may choose to transfer this over to the Dominion, as well as this when a Dominion is fighting in a combat where a Cherubim is involved he may choose to re-roll the dice for an instability check he takes, the second result stands even if it is worse than the first. Dominions are not affected by Princedoms “lead from the front” special rule.

Core
Angels
This term is used to describe a majority of those that “seemed” to have played a minor part in the Great War. They are the troops, the warriors that make the legions of Angelic beings. Warriors they may be, they are above the power of some of the mightiest creatures on the planet, as it is often pictured just one Angel slaying three or more daemonic entities at once, if this is just a unknown bias is not known, but it is assumed these were great and mighty warriors in times gone…

---------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Angel--------5-----5----3-----5----4---1---5---2-----8
Ark Angel---5-----5---3-----5----4----1---5---3----8
Unit Size: - 10+

Equipment:- Holy Blade and Angelic Robes

Cost/pts: - 18pts per model

Options:
Upgrade one Angel to a musician for +7pts

Upgrade one Angel to a Standard Bearer +7pts

Upgrade one Angel to a Ark Angel +14pts

Special Rules-
Angelic Robes: - These robes that the Angel wears are said to be part of the angel’s body itself shifting and changing to avoid incoming attacks. The Cherubim has a 5+ Ward save.

Holy Blade - The holy blades the Angels wielded were said to be encrypted with thousands of holy words making their mere touch burn, they are the bane of daemons and mortals alike…
The holy blades make an Angels attack Magical as well as this the Holy blade can never wound on anything less than a 5+.

Instability- Angels suffer instability in an identical way to Daemons.

Angelic- Angels are ethereal unworldly creatures, they cause fear.


Special
Powers
The writings recorded of Powers and Virtues are highly unusual, they are two very different beings yet, when mentioned they are always of spoken of as “together”. There is some strange Symbolic link between the two that is yet to be discovered.

----------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Powers--5-----5----0-----6---4----1---10---3---8
Unit Size:- 5+

Equipment: - Twin Angelic Blades, Angelic Robes

Cost/pts: - 35pts per model

Special rules-

Skirmishers- Powers are skirmishers

Angelic Robes- See Angels
Twin Angelic Blades-
The holy blades the Angels wielded were said to be encrypted with thousands of holy words making their mere touch burn, they are the bane of daemons and mortals alike…

The holy blades make an Angels attack Magical as well as this the Holy blade can never wound on anything less than a 5+.

In addition the twin Angelic blades grant the user the Killing blow and Poisoned weaponry special rules.

Instability- See angels.

Angelic- See angels.

Wings- Powers sprout wings that grant them the ability to fly.

Virtues
The two most prominent distinctions between the pictures of Virtues and powers is that while one sprouts wings and holds two elegantly crafted blades, the others hold beautifully crafted Bows that would easily match the skill of any eleven counterpart.

-----------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Virtues---5-----4----6----3----4----1----5---1---8

Unit Size: - 5-10

Cost/Pts: -24pts per model

Equipment: - Angelic Bow, Angelic Robes

Angelic Robes- See angels

Angelic Bow- The angelic bows spoken and shown always look and seem of truly un-earthly origin. They are elegantly crafted, an elf would find it an amazing achievement to craft such a high quality bow. Angelic bows count as Long bows, they have +1S and are Armour piercing, In addition they may move and shoot with no penalty.

Rare
Angelic Quire
There is one picture that baffles scholars around the world, it has been the topic of discussion of many conversations and yet no conclusion has been reached yet. The painting of the Great War shows a single image of a group of Angelic beings, they are grouped at the far back at the painting. Rather with swords drawn ready for battle they are standing upon a hill, and, appear to be signing. Around them it shows daemonic entities. Running towards them trying to attack but they are collapsing on the floor and screaming in pain the closer they approach. It truly is strange this painting, and I am sure its true meaning will never be fully understood…

------------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
Angelic Quire-0-----5------0---5----6---6----2---3----10

Pts/Cost: - 205pts

Equipment: - Their voices!

Quire: - The Angels that are singing are grouped together into a single stat line, as they are truly a single entity split into different notes. They may not move but if attacked they will fight in the normal way. They may not pursue or over run.

Angelic Voices: -
When the Quire sings anything that can hear them instantly collapses as the song pierces the very fabric of their reality, burning away at their mind. The Voices are treated like a bound spell with a power level of 2D6. If successfully cast it affects all enemy units that can draw line of sight to the quire. Roll 2D6+2 and deduct the unit’s Leadership from the total. The score is the number of wounds the unit suffers, with no armour saves allowed distributed as shooting hits. These hits count as magical. Roll separately for each unit that can see the quire.


Un-natural- The Quire casts dread into the heart of every wizard on the battlefield as they feel un ease in even the winds of magic. All wizards suffer –1 on their casting rolls. These cannot cuase a miscast or stop a spell being cast with irresistible force.

Terror- The quire is un-earthly. It causes Terror.

Instability- The angelic Quire still suffers from instability. In the same way as daemons.


Angelic Gifts
-It seems in the writings that every Angel had their own form of personal difference, while some could merely raise a hand to destroy an enemy; others are shown sustaining the energies of nearby allies. Modern scholars that they must all have been blessed with powers beyond mortal’s comprehension.

Angelic gifts are holy blessings from gods of ancient times. They are mostly unique powers given to the angels, as such only one angel per an army may have a gift, and they may not take more than one of the same gift.

Touch of Death: -75pts
The angel gains the ability to merely have to touch an enemy in order to fell them. If this power is used it reduces the angels attacks to 1 But increases it to S10. If this attack wounds and gets through armour and/or ward save of the opponent they instantly die as their very life force is drained from them.

Unearthly essence: - 75pts
The angel gains the ability to regenerate parts of its body destroyed by channelling its energy into the damaged limbs. The angel gains the ability to regenerate.

Gaze of Flame: - 50pts
Holy fire erupts from the Angel’s mouth and eyes enveloping the enemy in a blazing inferno. The Angel gains a shooting attack with the range of 8”. If the attack hits the spell “Conflagration of Doom” is cast on the chosen unit. All the spell effects apply as normal.

Task of my master: - 45pts
The angels Task is to destroy the enemies of their master, and if it is spoken it shall be done…
The Angel re-rolls all failed to hit and to wound rolls against opponents.

Holy Radiance: - 40pts
The Angel emits holy energy making those around it have a stronger grip on the real world. Any units within 6” of the Angel take one less wound from instability if they are defeated in combat. For example, a unit of angels fail their instability check by 3. Instead of taking 3 wounds, they only take 2 wounds.

Holy voice: - 30pts
The angel uses its voice as a weapon as well as its holy blade. In any of the Angelic Beings players shooting phase the Angel may unleash its voice. This counts as a breath attack, it is S4.

Spell Breaker: - 25pts
The Angel is allowed to drain away the energy from enemy spells. Once per battle, the angel may automatically dispel one enemy spell, except one, which has just been cast with Irresistible force. (Note: Unlike a normal Angelic gift it has happened that Angels have been able to stop more than one spell, as such more than one angel may have this gift and an angel may have more than one of it)

Might of Ancient times: - 25pts
The Angel has +1 strength on its profile.

Master of the ancient arts: - 25pts
The Angel knows one additional spell from the lore of heavens.

Echoes of the past: - 15pts (one use only)
The angel speaks ancient words that the unworthy may not listen to without being thrown into pain. Once per game this gift may be activated. Anything with 8” takes an instant D6 S3 hits.


Legends of old
-There is only one named angel throughout all of the ancient texts. It is believed he was one of the ancient Seraphim, one of the most powerful angels in the world. It is believed he may even have been one of the generals of the armies in the Great War. He is always depicted wielding a huge blade, far longer than any of the others; another unique feature to him is that he only has one wing. This has led many modern scholars to refer to him as the “One Winged Angel”.

Throughout pictures he is depicted doing different things. In one he is fighting what appear to be four different daemons, he merely forces his blade to the ground and the earth itself swallows up the daemons. In another depiction he changes full throttle head first into a unit of Daemonic entities, he then transforms into a massive wave of blue energy, ploughing thorough the army of daemons causing destruction un told, he emerges the other side Unscathed, and laughing at the destruction of his enemies.

One cannot say what the “One Winged Angel” truly was, or what powers he had, but it is clear that he is not one to be taken lightly.

(Any gamers out there seeing some familiar traits with this guy, with due respect this is not going to become a real army book, and who can say they didn’t ever want to see him made into a game of warhammer?)

----------------------------M---Ws---Bs---S---T---W---I---A---Ld
The Mighty Sephrioth-6-----10----10---8---8---8---10---8---10

(The Mighty Spehrioth takes up two lord choices and one rare choice to field!)

Cost/Pts: - 1225pts

Weapons: - The great blade of the Ancient gods, Robes of Seraphim

Special Rules: -

The One Winged Angel: - Sephrioth must be your army general

Work of Mastery: - Sephrioth is a level 4 Wizard, he uses lore of heavens.

The great blade of the Ancient gods: - This massive weapon has the power to destroy Greater Daemons with ease; it is the most powerful weapon that is used in the Great War. The great blade of the Ancient gods grants Spehrioth with several different abilities. It may be used in one of the following 3 ways each turn.

1. He may use it as a weapon, when he uses it in this form all attacks hit automatically, no to hit roll is required.
2. He may use it to pull energy from the very earth to swallow up his enemies. He slams the blade into the floor. All enemy units within 12” of him take 2D6 S5 hits.
3. He may use it to become a massive wave of blue energy and drive himself through the enemy destroying everything in his path. To use this he must use his fly move in a direct straight line straight through the enemy unit. He counts as a bolt thrower with a S10. Hitting an enemy never reduces his Strength and he may go through more than 1 enemy unit as long as they are within his 20” fly range. If he is unable to wound an enemy he will revert back to his normal form and be placed up to 3” away from the energy unit on the opposite side of the unit hit.

You must declare which way you are using it at the start of the turn before any charges are declared.

Wings: - The mighty Sephrioth sprouts a massive pair of wings that he uses to move around. He may fly.

Robes of Seraphim: - The robes of the Seraphim give Sephrioth a 3+ ward save as they shift and re alter his body to avoid enemy units.



-The War of the Ancients

Eons ago, during the arrival of the old ones, they discovered the daemonic entities that haunt the world. In order to stop these entities from entering the world the Old ones set up huge blocks or “barriers” that prevented them from emerging from the Southern or Northern wastes.

However a great tragedy happened and the Old Ones vanished without a trace. With there leaving the blocks ceased to work. It is thought that the race of Lizardmen took part in a war and alone stopped the march of Daemonic Entities from taking over the world.

However newly discovered paintings, writings and stone tablets have emerged from recent incursions of Tilean Princes into Lustria. The texts reveal another races part in the war.

It describes them as “Winged Messengers of the word of the Old Ones” It is thought that the Old Ones may have created this race for a very strange reason. To guard the block that keep daemons from entering the known world.

The pictures always show that these blocks as being a sort of “home” for the winged messengers. They seem tied to them in an unknown way. It is as if they are not meant to leave the blocks, they are drawn to them.

The high elves and Lizardmen actually guard some of these ancient barriers themselves but it appears that the Key ones were guarded what the text refers to as “Angels”. These “Angels” and “Winged messengers” appear identical and so it is assumed they are one and the same.

The new texts also tell of a war that started around the time that the war between Lizardmen and Daemons ended. A war between Angels & Daemons. Neither Angel nor Daemon could be killed and so the war was of banishment, the two sides clashed over and over. Both sides were always trying to push other back.

The daemons pushing the angels back to the barriers of the old ones while the angels pushing daemons back to the Southern wastes.

It is recorded that just as the angels were about to lose the war, all there forces withdrawn back to the ancient monuments that were supposed to stop the daemons a single gleaming figure lifted from the crowd. A shining light amid the Darkness, an Angel with one wing. An angel that the text refers to as Sephrioth.

With Sephrioth leading the charge the Angels made a final breakthrough push against the daemons, hundreds of Daemons fell as the Angels fought with renewed strength. Hundreds were slain and banished back to the wastes.

It was hear, at the monument of the Old Ones that the war was one. In a final selfless act a huge amount of the angels destroyed themselves in a hope to re power the monuments and bind the daemons once and for all.

It seems to have worked as immediately after the angels destroyed themselves the daemons were throne into agony and banished back to the Chaos wastes. The war was over. The Angels had one, but the cost had been high.

It was thought by this that the entire race was extinct, however with the recent “discovery” by Karan Khan, who knows what the future holds for this race of Angelic Beings…

A troop by troop critique:

Cherubim: Very powerful, but very expensive as well. I think he needs a price hike.
Princedom: Too cheap.
Dominion: Decent. I don't know about the price.
Angels: Way too cheap and powerful. Take them down to strangth 4. Make their blades magical and flaming, and nothing more. Don't give the base angel fear. It's fluffy, but it's way too powerful.
Powers; Good. However, I don't know about KB. Defenitly not poision.
Make them have a special flight move that only goes 10 inches. You should do that with the whole army. Make them skirmish.
Virtues: Like them.
Quire: A bit far fetched, but good.

This needs major work. Let me go through everything 1 by 1.

Cherubim: Seems way to similar to a Chaos Daemon of some sort. Aren't we the antithesis of Chaos?

Maybe make a cheaper "Summoner" that is the lv 4 wizard. Make him be the first Lord choice you take. You must take a mage of some sort. Along with the "summoner," make there be a summoner junior (not that name of course). Make a fighty Lord, with Cherubim's stats, but no robe. 300 points.

For the Heroes:
Princedom: Mini-Cherubim. Do what I said for Cherubim. Lose the option for magic. 150 points.
Dominion: Cool. Add skill to Princedom. Keep rest.

Thats all I have time for right now, I'll do core later.
---Baran

I would agree with Baran on the idea of summoners because the cheapest form of magic you can get is 220 pts, making it hard to mount a magic defense. Now onto the 1 on 1 critiques-

Cherubim: I like him, although he might be a little to cheap
Prinedom: Again just a little to cheap, maybe around 200 points
Dominion: I like it
Angels: I like the idea but as they are the rank and file troop of the army i think you should drop them to S4, and lose fear.
Powers: I like them but t with KB and poision they are over powered
Virtues: Very good
Choir: I think they are pretty good

I like the list but it definetly needs some work. I'll try to go more in depth when I have the time.

Ok, back again. Angels have S5. First thing to go.
I'd change their angelic robes to like -1 in combat, or a 6+ ward. A 5+ Ward for core against all attacks? Thats way too good.

Powers should be S5. They should lose their KB and Poison. Have twin angelic blades add +1, or +2 Attacks. Nothing else. I'd also up their points to 40, 45 if +2 attacks.

Virtues should have their points cost upped. Also, they are almost always hitting with AP S4, on 2+'s. This should be changed.
Quire is WAY overpowered. Make him cost 2 rares, and 325 points.

Overall, I feel this list has too few choices, and no visible weakness.
Tomorrow I'll post ideas on how to correct these things.
---Baran

Oh dudes!! IT really needs much time and work to make it... the list as is right now is only a kind of good start for army creation... lot of work, lot of work here... :huh:

Few first observations:

Cherubim: one-man army... this guy is almost unbeatable...and has everything what is considered cool in WFB... was it your intetion to make uber-character able to kill all enemy himself on alone?? Even though being wotrth more then 1/4 of army it's too cheap...
Prinedom: That skill that allow re-rolling instability tests is far too good... on Ld 8-10 with re-rolls there will be no failed instabilities... beside that that skill works during first test (unmodified by CR) only or during both?? too cheap...
Dominion: don't see fluff need for him... don't differ much from others (mainly all the units differ only by stats....apperence is same i suppose...) :huh: too cheap...
Angels: what is the fluff explanation that they can't fly?? were they wings cut off?? 18 points for 2 attacks S5 armour piercing with WS5 and ward 5+ is strongly underpriced...Note that right now they cost only 2pts less than Chosen Chaos Warrior with Halberd...(2 attack S5, AS: 4+, WS5, not causing fear, not unbreakable) assuming that fear on model costs 2 or 3 pts and being unbreakable but instable is 2pts... then they should cos 21pts each...
Powers: right...wishing anything more to give them?? No?? oh, right they have already all the skills.... :blink: KB, poison, skirmish, ward, unbreakable, not mentuioning their stats...isn't that too much?? What is the reason they have poison?
Virtues: those bows are a wonder...too beutiful to become real...
Choir: almost same as banshees... but beside that good... i only wonder why beutiful singing could kill someone...

And what hit me...why those Angel beings cause fear/terror???? I understand that daemons or evil creatures can fear tghem but good beings should see them as sign of luck, filling their hearts with hope....I wouldn't fear angel of i ever see any of them rather would be so excited that they blessed me...

I'm not sure if you made it intentionally or by accident but your angel names are similar to those of st. Thomas's clasification of angels... you just lack one of them- Thrones (if i remember well they were real heaven kingpins!!)

create more weaker units of minor serrvants of angels or something

I also thought that Angels would be versalite to Daemons...same stats but where daemons are brutal and fierce...angels are full of dignity and harmony... daemons kill well and angels are difficult to kill. Daemons spread terror while angels give hope to friendly soldiers. Daemons destroy while angels protect or recreate (Resurection skill?) I used some hard words above methinks. but i didn't wanted to offend yoo or discourage from creating the list...My intention was to show you it needs a lot more work...and fresh, interesting ideas!! take a challange and make it good but rethink few things in the list...Cheers

i think that the theme of the angels needs to be re-addressed, as said in relation to the daemons which they are sworn to fight, it should be something more like they were created? to fight the daemons, and so only have marginally better stats than the daemons, but have special rules against them.

virtues are something i just dont feel fits into the army, i think that they should all be close combat oriented, like the daemons that they will be fighting.

everything in the list looks to be a little over powered, especially the basic core angels.

Characters... good enough for now

Angels - underpriced, i'd lose the causing fear, and just make the weapons magical, drop to s4... keep the points cost though, at 18

Powers - drop to s4, only 2 attacks +1 for two weapons, make the weapons only magical, points down to match the virtues

Virtues - good but give them back the move and shoot penalty

Choir - too much like the casket of souls if i remember




generall,s these guys are a bit too much like the daemon lists... i think there needs to be a general re-evaluation of what we want to army to fight like

everything seems way too overpowered, have a look at other elite small armies to get an idea of what limits we should have, and one thing stuck out at me, Powers are S6, first that is overpowering, then they get blades giving them the ability to never wound on worse than 5+, what armies actually have T8 and higher?

Oohh...first post here. I think this list has a very bright future! Everything looks really cool, but of course I have a few comments...

Cherubium: I like big beefy uber guys! I must say I think this guy looks quite balanced...maybe just a little more expensive perhaps...

Princedom: Well..a little more expensive there I think...after all, he's almost like a flying Tyrant! And perhaps a little bit less ward save...

Dominion: seems ok.

Angels: I think they should cost a little bit more just...and skip the ward save...make it -1 to hit or something like that...or perhaps a 6+ ward save, since they don't wear armour...And as for all the other angel units: the Angelic rules shouldn't be fear. I would make it to something like that their enemies are so baffled and awed by their presence that they loose their consentration or something like that....

Powers: Aaah...Seems good...though i dont think that their blades should have both killing blow and poisoned attacks...pick either of them.

Virtues: Like 'em. A little too cheap perhaps...

Choir: Really cool idea man! I just think the rules could be a bit different...like that their song should be paralyzing and possesing...not deadly and causing insanity.

And finally!....

SEPHIROTH!:

AH! I love this guy! (Yes I play and love the greatest game of all time: FinalFantasy 7!)
Well...I think he is all right...though he could be alot cooler than how he already is...Like toning down his profile a bit and giving him more and cooler special rules...Like having his own spell and a bit more common sword (after all...Masamune wasn't THAT spectacular but Supernova was ;) ).

Don't get me wrong now...I don't want him to be exactly like the FF Sephiroth...but right now he is just a uber-powerful Cherubium....

To be honest with you, I'd rather take away the whole "Angels must fight and Cast" thing. I'd rather just have the two Lord choices, like other armies. The Cherubim, without Magic, as the fighter, and a Summoner as a Mage.

I'm also quite worried that there is only one Core choice in the whole list. Even adding a Mark system (like the Chaos one, but different) would be better.

In honesty, I don't like the idea of Sephiroth leading the army. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Sephiroth, and I love FF7, but, I don't think we should be placing Sephiroth as the lead of the army in the warhammer world. I think we should create our own lead angel. You guys can puit him in if you really want him as a special character, but not as the leader.

Yeah. Don't rip other things off. Bad idea. I think he needs a new name and bio.

Would you all mind if I... errr, rewrote some of the fluff that has been presented to see if I can make it a bit more elaborate and interesting?

(Ya, I can write too)

Boy what a guy! You can do so much. Draw, write, talk and talk and think at the same time! Oh boy. I also think that sephiroth should be changed especially if we want to try to make this into an official army list as he is deffinatly a copyrighted character.

Rogue, can you play sports? Because, if so, you are truly the renissance man.
---Baran

Hehe, I happen to fence my friend. That only thing I can't do is dance. Play an instrument though.

Oh yes I got something on Rogue! I would like if my uncle would teach me to fence as he teaches classes on it but he lives quite a while away. But I can dance! My neighbor wanted me to take lessons with her so I took salsa and merenge dance lessons for a while and was actually quite good.

Haha, I win. I can play 3 instruments, many sports, draw fairly well given some time, write well, and brag loudly.
Oh, and I take Tap, Hip-Hop, and Ballet, and can dance many other styles as well. Yay, I'm rennisance. Now if only I could sing...

Violin, Soccer, Wrestling, Baseball, write, talk, brag, type, hide in my special corner, run away scared from things, sing horribly out of tune. I am the renissance man.
---Baran

I can sing, dance, play basketball, golf, clarinett, tenor sax, alto sax, crack some jokes, brag as well and... I am in the SCoHW oh yeah now I remember I also have ADD :P JK. I am the alpha male woops I mean renissance man!

Typing? Rennisance? :blink: Ever studied history?

Ya. Typing enables me to portray my literary and critique-ery writing skills, and [12 minutes, several pages of nonsense later] thus what I said was NOT stupid!
---Baran

Yes it was.

Alright, sorry to threadjack this; let's focus on the list now. What can we do to improve the fluff?

Staying on topic, I have read through the list, and this is what I found wrong:
Cherubin
too powerful, few points;
150 pts of magic items: lower it to 100;
ward save 4+: max ward save has to be 5+, or a rerollabe 6+;
holy blade: -1 ward save: no can do;
ancient power: this limitates his availabilty, waay out of line;
he seems like a special character;

Princedoms
too powerful, few points;
Has Lord stats;

Dominions
2 hero choices!!! :blink:

Angels
too powerful, fewpoints: I'd make them 25 each (30 if flying)

Powers
too powerful, fewpoints: I'd make them 42 each

Virtues
too powerful, fewpoints: i'd make them 32 each
Holy cow, those bows: they are better then wood elves. No penalties and -2 Armor Save :blink:
BS 6 is waaay too cheesy

Quire
love the idea :D
Terror is not fluffy at all: uhh :unsure: singing ghosts....

Sephirot
Too powerful: no ammount of points can ever be enough
who would ever choose the 1st weapon option, when he has WS 10;
2nd weapon option: 12" is too much, better 6";
3rd weapon option: :blink: too powerful

The army in general seems very nice, and I bet there are more core units coming up.
I think the whole army should skirmish and fly. If so, there will have to be a serius points revisitiation.
cheers

I just remembered I read something about the fact that every enemy army has to have a deamon with it.
I love the idea, pretty much like Deamon hunters, in WH40K.
cool

The only problem with having this list at the top as a sticky is that people read it first without going to all of the other topics where we balance out quite a few of the issues with the original list. I think we also came to the conclusin that sephiroth was too powerful and needed to be changed so that we were not using a copyright and evil character.

We're making the revised list starting today, so that's not really an issue.

Yeah just with the last few posts that have been about the current list. I agree with many of the points that they make though which have hopefully have been worked over in the new list which is gladly starting today. I hope that will be up soon so I can see it all in one spot. Thanks for your hard work WP and GS.

I guess I'd better go get the compendium ready so me and GS will be set to start.

is there anything I can do... maybe we should divide work, like some one starts the fluff, someone the core units, and such...

Yes Ikim you can do quite a few things. Feel free to help comment on what you think needs change, write fluff, playtest, or anything else that will help this army grow. I think that when we get a more solid list that we will need more playtesters for over the summer though.

Once we've got a good list done, I'll start organizing things a bit more. For now, just do what you like. If you want to write fluff, write fluff and so on.

I would say for the choir you could have some kind of "Drift" move stating that while you cannot activly order them to move, they are carried aloft by the winds of magic and therefore scatter d6 inches each turn

Hey Badger, you're new, so welcome!
Thats a good idea, but you should be able to elect to drift or not, because then its just not tactically sound to take them. They would be too unpredictable.
---Baran

Yes, welcome. I agree with Baran, that your idea is cool, but unless point cost is changed for the unit then it would be to random, as Baran said. It is an idea to consider though so thanks for the input.