Army wide special rule:
Angelic flight
-This move counts as a flight move in the same way as normal flight described in the warhammer rulebook, follow all the rules there, except instead of flying 20" they fly 10".

Lords

Cherubim
275
M4 Ws7 Bs5 S5 T4 A5 I8 3W Ld10
Can have 100 points of angelic gifts
Angelic Robes: 5+ Ward
Can become a magic user (up to level 3, for plus 45 points a level)

Ark Abalim
245
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 3W Ld8
Angelic Robes: 5+ Ward
May choose from lore of the Ancients, Heavens or Light
May choose up to 100 points of magic items
The Ark Abalim is a lvl 3 wizard. He may be upgraded to level 4 for 35 points.

Heroes:

Princedom
100
M4 Ws6 Bs4 S4 T4 A3 I6 2W Ld9
Can have 50 points of angelic gifts
Angelic Robes: 6+ Ward
May take the army battle standard +25tps. If Princedom does, he cannot be general and may not take any other non magical equipment. He may also take up to one magic banner, up to any pts cost. If he chooses a banner he may not take any other options whatsoever.

Dominion
130
M4 Ws6 Bs4 S5 T4 A4 I7 2W Ld10
Stubborn. Can’t join Angels, Arch-angels, Vengeances, Cherubim’s guard, Powers, Virtues or Choirs.
Can’t be general.
Can have 50 points of magic items
Angelic Robes: 5+

Abalim
105
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 2W Ld8
Angelic Robes: 6+ Ward
May choose from lore of the Ancients, Heavens or Light
May choose up to 50 points of magic items
The Abalim is a lvl 1 wizard. He may be upgraded to level two for 35 points.

Core:

Angel
11
Unit size:10+
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 1W Ld8
Hand weapon
Heavy armor
May take Longbows for +2 points (you may only have as many angel units with longbows as you have angel units without bows)
Promote One angel to a Standard bearer (+14pts)
Promote One angel to a Champion (+14pts. +1A)
Promote One angel to a Musician (+7pts)

Archangels
14
Unit size:10+
M4 WS5 Bs4 S4 T3 A1 I5 1W Ld8
Heavy armor
Additional Hand Weapons
May switch Additional Hand Weaponss for Halberds for free
Must have at least as many angel units as archangel units
Promote One angel to a Standard bearer (+14pts)
Promote One angel to a Champion (+14pts. +1A)
Promote One angel to a Musician (+7pts


Vengeances
27
Unit Size: 5-15
0-1 per 1000 pts
M4 WS5 BS0 S4 T3 A2 I5 W1 Ld9
The Vengainces do not wear armor. They go into battle bare chested. However, their skin is blindingly light. As such, they have a 4+ ward save against shooting.
Skirmish
Stubborn
Hatred of Chaos
They wield twin bladed swordsticks. These can either be used as two hand weapons or great weapons. All troops must use the same attack.

Special:

Anelai
13
Unit size:8-12
0-1 per 1000 points
M4 Ws5 Bs3 S4 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld8
Hand Weapon
Skirmishing
Scouts
Stray too Far- The Anelai have gone too far away from their sacred tower and therefore they have lost their wings and ability to fly. Shanaras may not use angelic flight.
May be upgraded with flaiming bows for +3pts a model.

Cherubim Guard
20
Unit size: 10+
M4 WS5 Bs0 S4 T3 A2 I5 1W Ld9
Angelic Robes: 6+ ward
Heavy armor
Hand Weapon
0-1 per Cherubim
Must stay within 12" of a cherubim. Once the Cherubim has been slain, they gain hatred against the unit that killed him.
Stubborn if with the cherubim
Promote One angel to a Standard bearer (+14pts)
Promote One angel to a Champion (+14pts. +1A)
Promote One angel to a Musician (+7pts


Powers
62
Unit size: 3+
M4 WS5 Bs0 S6 T4 A3 I5 3W Ld8
Heavy armor
2 hand weaps


Virtues
28
Unit size: 5-10
M4 WS4 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I3 1W Ld8
Heavy armor
Hand Weapon
Roll a D3+1 and D6 at the beginning of the game. The D3+1 is the power level of the bound spell attack, and the D6 is the strength of the magic missile. This unit may cast it's bound spell at one enemy unit per turn within line of sight. It has a range of 24" and is armor piercing


Rare:

Choir
205
Unit size: 1
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T4 A0 I5 4W Ld8
Nominate an enemy unit, within 30 inches and LoS, and not in combat. That unit must take a leadership test. They may not use the generals ld for this test and they may not use a battle standard re-roll. If the unit that failed its leadership test is an infantry unit (models mounted on smaller than cavalry bases) then they take 2d6 wounds. If the unit that failed its leadership test was a unit on bases larger than infantry units then this unit takes D6 wounds. No armour saves are allowed
against these wounds, though ward saves are.

This affects Unbreakable, Immune to Phsycolgy, or any unit that is assumed to automaticaly assumed to pass its ld test.

Angelic Robes: 6+ Ward
Hand Weapon
Unit Strength:6

WP, like the magic user's name? I was bored. Here is the list. It is the absolute best our tv-destroyed minds could come up with. Whaddya think?
---Baran

Yes, please give some comments! I like the name actually Baran :P . Anyways, what do people think?

yess finally its donee i like it that you gave them armor insted of the robes but we need another lord character but other than that its fine

We debated one, but couldn't really justify it. Maybe a generic lord level caster?
---Baran

High Leval Magic User. If somebody will write rules for him, I'll add him right in.

Deiamagicko
245
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 3W Ld8
Angelic Robes: 5+ Ward
May choose from our own lore thing, or Heavens or Light
May choose up to 100 points of magic items
May be upgraded to level 4 for 35 points.

And change the Useromagicko to A1.
---Baran

Added the magic user stuff. Now we need slightly more realistic names.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/apps/eshare.p...253&template=uk

Whatever. Cool. But, to quote someone on TGUO: "You could go to the GW forums. But, you could also stab yourself in the eye with a blunt screwdriver."
---Baran

Well, it does give the site more publicity. Which it badly needs. Because it's dying. I really wouldn't have done that if it weren't.

Well, I like the magic user, but for a lord, make him str 4 but keep him t3. I also checked the forum and it is already on like page 4 with no replies. I hope we get some good people from it though.

But, what other normal lord level magickers (ignoring Ogres and Undead/Tzeentch) have higher combat stats? In my limited experience with elves and orcs, they do not.
---Baran

Many lord level mages for other armies, have 4 str or 4 or 5 toughness. Not high toughness for a mage is much better then higher str, but at 1 atk and str 4 he should still be reasonable.

Whatever. Lets here other opinions though, before we do this.
---Baran

you can drop the points for the Cherubim thats what i think at lest around 200 you could make the robe a choice. you are right about the site dieing we need it to be more lively

To drop the points on the cherubim, we would have to change him a lot to get him to 200 points. He already went from the 600 some he was to this. I think he is good for now.

ARGHHH! ALL MY HARD WORKED FLUFF WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH IT YOU FIENDS!

Anyway. Okay, umm i still think the list needs a bit of a workover. Lets take a lookesy...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Army wide special rule:
Angelic flight (10”)

-Hmm, bit to simple, needs more in depth description. Can they fly over Terrain? Does it let them fly over enemy models? Can they avoid missile fire by doing it?

Lords

Cherubim
275
M4 Ws7 Bs5 S5 T4 A5 I8 3W Ld10
Can have 100 points of angelic gifts
Angelic Robes: 5+ Ward
Can become a magic user (up to level 3, for plus 45 points a level)

-Okay, so he's not Greater Daemon Lvl. Hmm i would still like to see somthing that could go toe to toe with a bloodthirster and come out on top. As a standerd lord, he's okay.

Deiamagicko - New name needed
245
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 3W Ld8
Angelic Robes: 5+ Ward
May choose from our own lore thing, or Heavens or Light
May choose up to 100 points of magic items
May be upgraded to level 4 for 35 points.

-Okay. First i hate the name (no offence to whoever came up with it) Hmm, heres some ancient names for you. Ayin Hara, for this guy and for the other magic user Ayin Kanora. Very magical (but maybe not sutiable) names... Magic wise, well. No. I hate to say that he is far to weak to be 245pts. In contrast to a Truthsayer who is ALREADY a Lvl 3 wizard, has actually got a better stat line and a better ward save. Either drastic pts drop or make him lvl 3 standard with lvl 4 option.

Heroes:

Princedom
100
M4 Ws6 Bs4 S4 T4 A3 I6 2W Ld9
Can have 50 points of angelic gifts
Angelic Robes: 6+ Ward

-Good to see my mates. Battle standard option would be nice.

Dominion
130
M4 Ws6 Bs4 S5 T3 A4 I7 2W Ld10
Stubborn. Can’t join Angels, Arch-angels, Vengeances, Cherubim’s guard, Powers, Virtues or Choirs.
Can’t be general.
Can have 50 points of magic items
Angelic Robes: 5+

-NOT T3, were not making an army of elves here. He has to be T4 Minimum. He is supposed to be able to fight an Exalted Daemon and have as much chance of winning as the daemon.


Useromagicko - New name needed
105
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 2W Ld8
Angelic Robes: 6+ Ward
May choose from our own lore thing, or Heavens or Light
May choose up to 50 points of magic items
May be upgraded to level two for 35 points.

New name. Otherwise okay...

Core:

Angel
13
Unit size:10+
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I5 1W Ld8
Hand weapon
Heavy armor
May take Longbows for +2 points (you may only have as many angel units with longbows as you have angel units without bows

-To Elfy for my liking yet again... But it could work. Still to elfy...

Archangels
17
Unit size:10+
M4 WS5 Bs4 S4 T3 A1 I5 1W Ld8
Heavy armor
Additional Hand Weapons
May switch Additional Hand Weaponss for Halberds for free
Must have at least as many angel units as archangel units

Boost em up to 22pts and give em T4, these guys should be a really hard unit, not 1 magic missile and buy buy Arch angels.

Vengeances
36
Unit Size: 5-15
0-1 per 1000 pts
M4 WS5 BS0 S4 T3 A2 I5 W1 Ld9
The Vengainces do not wear armor. They go into battle bare chested. However, their skin is blindingly light. As such, they have a 6+ ward save against shooting.
Skirmish
Stubborn
Hatred of Chaos
They wield twin bladed swordsticks. These can either be used as two hand weapons or great weapons. All troops must use the same attack.

-Needs lots of work. 6+ save and 36pts a model? No.

Special:

Shanaras
13
Unit size:8+
0-1 per 1000 points
M4 Ws5 Bs3 S4 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld8
Hand Weapon
Skirmishing
Scouts
Stray too Far- The shanaras have gone too far away from their sacred tower and therefore they have lost their wings and ability to fly. Shanaras may not use angelic flight.

-New name (it actually sounds like somthing i would come up with mind you) Give them bows and make them snipers.

Cherubim Guard
24
Unit size: 10+
M4 WS5 Bs0 S4 T3 A2 I5 1W Ld9
Angelic Robes: 6+ ward
Heavy armor
Hand Weapon
0-1 per Cherubim
Must stay within 12" of a cherubim. Once the Cherubim has been slain, they gain hatred against the unit that killed him.
Stubborn if with the cherubim

-NO look at the pts cost! a Temple guard which is probably better than this unit doesnt cost anything near this. They need T4! There not Elves!

Powers
62
Unit size: 3+
M4 WS5 Bs0 S6 T4 A3 I5 1W Ld8
Heavy armor
2 hand weaps

-Ahh, now i like. But for 62 pts 1 wound? No. No no no no no. at least 2, maby 3 wounds. 1 Crossbow hail and these guys are very very stuffed...

Virtues
28
Unit size: 5-10
M4 WS4 Bs4 S3 T3 A1 I3 1W Ld8
Heavy armor
Hand Weapon
Roll a D3+1 and D6 at the beginning of the game. The D3+1 is the power level of the bound spell attack, and the D6 is the strength of the magic missile. This unit may cast it's bound spell at one enemy unit per turn within line of sight. It has a range of 24" and is armor piercing

-Okay.... this is weird. Umm, i dont know what inspired you to do this, but i just done see it happening. Especially for a stat line like that and 28pts a model.

Rare:

Choir
205
Unit size: 1
M4 WS5 Bs4 S3 T4 A0 I5 4W Ld8
Nominate an enemy unit, within 30 inches and LoS, and not in combat. That unit must take a leadership test. If the unit that failed its leadership test is an infantry unit (models mounted on smaller than cavalry bases) then they take 2d6 wounds. If the unit that failed its leadership test was a unit on bases larger than infantry units then this unit takes D6 wounds. No armour saves are allowed against these wounds, though ward saves are.
Angelic Robes: 6+ Ward
Hand Weapon
Unit Strength:6

-What was wrong with my version? it was effectivey a casekt of souls. Needs discussion, but could work.

Overall

Well, some of the list looks ok, but a lot needs work still. Kinda sad i left, i must toe the line with you lot! Oh well back to the cold dark room in the corner of the Basememnt. You know which one im talking about.... The one with Cheese? (you know Baran...)

I would still like to mention, these guys are not supposed to be, and i hope will never become elves! A major problem with its list is its elvish Character. Needs to be worked away.

Well, lets here what the masses think!

I just noticed some errors. That Ward on the Vengiances should be +4. I think.
And that should be 3 wounds on the Powers.

As I created the base for this list, I'll defend it. *Steps out of dark basement room, and defends*

So, there you have it. I think you're trying to make this army an uber, super-powerful one, with high toughness, high WS and amazing magic. We are trying to make this balanced. T3 and S3 are normal, we do not want to break all of GW's established guidelines for making armies. Any other comments/defencements?
---Baran

As I created the base for this list, I'll defend it. *Steps out of dark basement room, and defends*

So, there you have it. I think you're trying to make this army an uber, super-powerful one, with high toughness, high WS and amazing magic. We are trying to make this balanced. T3 and S3 are normal, we do not want to break all of GW's established guidelines for making armies. Any other comments/defencements?
---Baran

Hmm. I agree with taking the T up on the Dominion. And the Temple Guard/Cherubim Guard thing. Run a playtest between them. I'm almost certain the angels will get slaughtered.

I'm not sure. I think the dominion could have T4, but not the cherubim guard. Think baout TG. They are spawned to protect the Slann. They don't have very different stats than saurus, just higher WS and are stubborn (and higher initiative). So, maybe they should have WS6, and I 6. Nothing else though. And 19-21 points.
---Baran

I'm just looking at the list, and I think angels should be 11 points, and archangels should be 15. Their stats do not warrant 13 and 17 points respectively. Anyone else agree?
---Baran

i agree with that i've seen 13 pt models and angels don't seam to hold that quality so a pt drop seams in ordert also drop it for the cherebelum you can get a magic casting tomb king with +1T +1W -1A and a curse for 100 pts less

Ok. I agree. I think the Cherubim should be maybe 205, and the deiamagicko should be 180ish? And angel 10-11, arch 14-15, and I'll think about the rest.
---Baran

I think I'm going to fight a playtest soon to find out. And then if some of you will do some playtests, we can figure out what needs changing. ;)

Wow you guys post a ton during the day! Alright, most of the things that Baran said defending the list are true. Also we told WP to drop the points on Vengeances to like 29 if they went down to one wound. You also did come up with the name shanaras, I just made a unit out of it. I will get a bit more up later but I have to eat now.

i need bases sizes so i can try out the army agenst my friend on saturday too see it's effectiveness and i'll incorpret the mabey Dark Ones

also drop angel pt value to 11 at lest i've pitedthem agenst all 13 pt models i could find and they lost every time angels and hw with shield

I could see a temporary drop in the points for angels but it is not all based on 1 up fights but how they function in an army. We need to run actual games, and not just 1 vs. 1 statistical checks to see how they fare. And to my knowledge powers are 40 or 50mm, and choir is 40 or 50mm, all other units are 25mm, and I am not sure on characters.

I agree with Iron.
Add that to your sig!
---Baran

Here's what I'd say:
Cherubim is big. Probably monster base. The rest are standard 25 mm.
Core = 25 MM
Special = 25 MM except Powers = Krox sized (don't remember what size base taht should be.)
Rare: Choir = monster base or five angels.

40 for krox. And I'd say Choir should be a 50x50 base. As should the cherubim.
---Baran

i have quite a few things to say about this:

first off, the level upgrades on the cherubim should be 50 for 1st, then another 35 for 2nd then another 50 for 3rd. if you look at VC, tzeentch etc going from 0 to 1 and from 2 to 3 costs more than 1 to 2 or 3 to 4 cos of the extra dispel dice.
also i think the cherubim is over-priced. take off the 30pts for his 5+ ward, and he is 245 pts. thats 100pts more than a saurus oldblood. for those 100pts he gets flight, +1 WS, -1T, a load more initiative and +2 LD but isnt cold-blooded. i dont think thats worth 100pts. i would say drop him to 230-250. his stats are fairly comparable to a vampire count, who is also a level 1 wizard and is only 205pts. the rest of the characters look ok.

angles should be dropped by a point i think. compare them to a high elf spearman, who is 11 points. they have +1 WS and can fly, but 1 worse movement. also heavy armour is cheaper than spear, light armour and shield. a drop of one point is about right i feel.


archangels need to be dropped by a couple of points too, theyre too easy to kill for 17 points a piece.

there is no way on earth i would pay 36 points for unit of creatures with 1 wound, T3, only a 6+ save and one that cannot claim rank bonus or cancel ranks. they need to be cheaper or increased in effectiveness. i like the twin blades rule, but they seem far too expensive to me unless im missing something.

shanaras look good, but i think they should either be S3 or only have 1 attack, and the minimum unit size should be dropped to 5+

cherubim guard are over-priced, or under-effective. giving them halberds would be a good start i feel. they should also have to be with the cherubim, like temple guard.

powers need an extra wound or 2 badly. 62pts for a T4 1 wound creature with only a 5+ save? no thanks.

virtues seem a bit random. they should work like horrors with the effectiveness of their spell being determined by how many models are in the unit.

the choir is....interesting. its rules need clarifying. does it work against unbreakableor immune to psych units? can you use the general's leadership?

Ok, what I wish is that people would read every reply to this topic so that we don't keep answering the same stuff over and over. When there are replies to a list, they are usually corrections and comments. Please read them! To answer you comments:

Cherubim: That just makes it a pain for level calculations. Your way actually comes out to be cheaper for the overall effect of level 4. It could be done but why not just keep it at 45 for each level? We already discussed a points drop for the cherubim as well.

Angel: Also already discussed a point drop for them.

Archangel: Same as above.

Vengeances: Already posted on here about the mistake but they should be 27 points because we dropped them down a wound. They are also much tougher then one would think, because being skirmishers they are already hard to hit, and then you add a 6+ ward. They are monsters in combat, and they should get there.

Shanaras: I would drop min unit size but WP made the post so only he can edit it and he is gone. They are str 4 and atk 2 for a reason, they are scouting small unit, and also don't have wings. If you want to drop str or atk then you would have to adjust the points accordingly.

Cherubim Guard: Explain to me again how they are overpriced, str4, atks2, almost always going to be stubborn, they fly and have higher Ws and I, and they have a 5+ save and 6+ ward. I think that they are good. We are also trying to be unique in that they have to be within 12" of him but not necessarily with him in the unit. Now I don't know what player wouldn't put him in the unit, but if they decide not to they don't have to.

Powers: Another case of read the posts, they have 3 wounds. Baran aade some mistakes when he sent WP the final list and WP is gone so we can't correct them as of now.

Virtues: I like them how they are now, but we could possibly go the way of making them more like horrors in their bound spell. Points would have to be adjusted though.

Choir: I don't know what seems to imply that unbreakable or immune to psych units are not affected by it, it is not a psychology test. It is like a living artillary piece. I am not sure whether we are going to allow it use generals leadership. It affects any unit targeted (even those always assumed to pass a leadership test without a roll).

it may make it a pain for level calculations but it fits in with the rest of the warhammer world.

cherubim guard are still only T3 with a 5+ armour and 6+ ward. compare them to the 13 points for a white lion, 14 for a hammerer, or 17 for a temple guard. i dont think they justify the huge points difference there.

the choir is going to be shocking against undead unless you let them use the generals leadership, thats why i was wondering if it affected unbreakables etc.

the way powers are now i see very little reason to take a big unit of them. lots of little units would be the way everyone would use them i would think.

I guess you could be right for the magic levels.

A slight points drop to possibly 20 could go for the guard but they are still good.

The choir needs to be playtested but if it didn't effect unbreakable units it would be useless against half of the armies out there.

Who said anything about taking large units of them. Look at mino's, etc. Most people will take msu of powers if they take them.

yes, the guard are good, i admit that. 20 seems about right, and i think giving them halberds would make them more useful too, especially as they dont have shields. true, the choir would be useless against some armies, but banshees dont work against immune to psych, and its the same with many other things like the crimson armour of dargon. i need to think about that one, the choir should be able to affect everything i agree, but at the moment it would slaughter undead.

Well, so does the Tomb Kings casket of souls which it was originally based on.

On the flip side, Vampires can raise new units or/and sight blockers and could probably take it out with a unit of Fell bats, and since angels are quite a mobiole army, it will be a hard choice for them to leave somthing back to defend it.