ok now chose one of these three any questions just ask

Links to the two of the ideas

From a fallen old one:Orignal fluff

Warriors attached to artificial bodies:Suggested changes

please vote for change, old ones should not be dragged any further in the Fantasy Fluff.

I'm afraid I have to say I prefer the old version, it was kind of cool with the first angels forming from shards of their patron.

Besides, artificial bodies can only look that real, when it comes down to it, they're still no real bodies. That would mean that the angels wouldn't bleed, and certainly wouldn't be affected by poisons, which in turn would give the entire amry an unfair advantage.
And then, there'll be the matter of new angels; how are they made, are the souls reused, or are new ones spontaneously spawned? And the bodies? Do the angels make them themselves, or are there legions of empty angel bodies standing in some Angelic warehouse, waiting for souls to possess them? If the former, how do they make them? And from what materials? And where do they aquire this materials, that the other races probably don't have access to?

In my opinion, too many questions. The current fluff is better.
That's just my opinion though.

--The Dark Master

poisons would actually work and there would be no unfair advantage because the undead are still affected by poisons, even though they are already dead with bones for bodies. the angels are able to imitate the oldones methods of creating the bodies.

Well that too brings some problems. Saying that angels have, even in just one field, powers equalling those of the Old Ones, is bad. And if they don't, then they can't produce bodies of equal quality, which in turn means that the new generations of angels would be inferrior to the older generations.(thinking about it, that could be a way to explain unit champions). But still, it would mean that the Angels had to anticipate what units would be needed, and create them long beforehand. Sort of like the 5-year-plans or something.


--The Dark Master

its not too hard to imitate superior technology to about equal or superior, angels have had their entire life span (which is eternal) to study methods to make their bodies (Russia can do it). even though you bring that up we are not even going to put reproduction in as part of the fluff. also artifical fluff is an easy way to explain how they can fly and be humanoid.

also there are massive problems with coming from an oldone. first of all why he would split apart and turn into lesser beings, the reasoning of how an old one even got stuck on that planet, it counteracts cannon fluff to make him stay past the time of the collapse (the slan would have known if the oldones were still on the planet). also oldones have more of a lizardmen appearance opposed to an angelic one (tropical jungles were their preferred homeland, no winged creature would like living in a dense jungle).

Why wouldn't they be able to fly, as humanoids, otherwise?

As for the splitting, there are no record of an old one ever dying before, so who can say that it is not in fact very normal for an old one to splt apart upon death? While I can see that that just sounds weird, there are other ways of explaining it:

Something with the extraordinary amounts of magic in the air could have affected the demise?

Or perhaps the old one's last trick, as he fell, a spell or implant he had equipped himself with long ago just in case something like that would happen?


The angels existing at all at that time counteracts cannon fluff, it was supposedly the lizardmen who did most of the fighting, and the elves the only others.
If an old one stayed, which he could have done for a number of reasons(seal the portal behind his brethen, trapped, stay to be able to call his brethen back should chaos be defeated...), maybe the slann did know. As you said, why wouldn't they?
And finally, regarding his appearence: since he was, unlike the other old ones, a warrior, it is possible that he, if he wasn't created that way, altered his body, to make it more suitable of combat. (these very enhancements could also be the reason for him splitting into lots of angels upon his death)

--The Dark Master

no you must explain the physiology or bring in some other hassles.

No the Oldones were masters of magic and technology i doubt that a warping corce would cause them to become lesser beings

why would a powerful creature as such prepare for his death? the old ones are strong enough to play with dragons as if they were pets, then can move planets preparing for their death is probly the last thing he will do.

thats where the beauty of their location comes into place, they are far from the inquisitive races, and are hidden in the world, basically we are in the warhammer worlds worlds blind spot.

First of all they don't care for this world they are like a child with a sand casle, build it and when it gets destroyed move on the old ones would never spend so much power into saving a doomed planet. you must remember the oldones do this for a living moving planet from planet creating life, i doubt very heavily that they would care if one was destroyed or not.

also the slann would know it all because the slann and the old ones are connected telepathically so if an old one were to stay the slann would know, yet the lizardmen army book says the old ones vanished (died or all ran away) just before the gates collapsed

now you are just pulling stories out of your bum,the old ones were alike you are basicly saying that an elf ,made itself appear more like an orc to fight better. the old ones would never need to alter their appearance they are powerful enough as it is.

Both, methods are equally "iffy" really....

But some of those questions I can answer:

Who said preparing, if I had infinite power I'd get my revenge in some manner or other.

Humans aren't built for it, we create a rather lot of air resistance among other things.......

but you see chaos is their equal, and i mean chaos as a whole not what is just on the Warhammer table top. also how are you going to combat the warp? but any creature with infinite power would first find a better from of revenge, not some parlor trick associated with monsters and beasts.

Why? Does Harpies and Furies ring any bells? They are humanoid and they fly.

Because they are not almighty. They can be defeated, trapped, and all that. And they most certainly knew this. Our guy, as their warrior, who's purpose would be to defend the others and cover their retreat, would be even more aware of the possibilities of death than his comrades, and therefore he might want to prepare for a final revenge.

They still fought chaos. And if they did, surely the other races would have noticed them. I mean, it's not every day that you see a huge army of winged humanoids. Not to mention this Seraphaal guy. No matter what he was, old one, avatar, god, demon, whatever, someone ought to have seen him.

To continue your metaphor, if their sandcastle got destroyed by a mean kid, isn't it natural for the children who built it to want revenge? They still spent lots of time creating something they were proud of. Of course they wouldn't like to see it all turned to dust.

Again, I stress that Our guy is different from his berthen because his job was to fight. Perhaps, to avoid distractions he rid himself of telepathic link, or merely blocked it.

No no. I'm saying that perhaps the old ones' bodies were not optimal for combat. And since they, as you have said yourself on several ocasions, can play with dragons and move planets and all that, isn't it reasonable for them to be able to alter their own bodies? Perhaps a straighter back would help him raise his shield/blade, and wings would allow him to travel faster on the planet. And the old ones, while powerful, were not made for battle. their powers were of creation, not destruction. thus, if they needed to fight, they would have to do so the old-fashioned way, and to do that efficiently, they might want to alter their bodies.

i see you often bring up that he is the warrior figure who has been altered to fight better, but Why do they need a warrior figure to begin with, quote from the book is that they have the ability to twist time and space to their will? also onto that if they were to alter their forms wouldn't it be more of a sarus warrior like creature.

actually the Old Ones fled the planet because they knew it was impossible to win against such a force and left the planet to it's doom, or the pure energy of chaos killed them all its a choice between the two and nothing more. why would they want revenge this is what they do for a living they travel planet from planet spreading life thus is the work of the old ones.

or he was instantly killed off by chaos with the rest of the old ones 2/3 possibilities say so, the other one is that they all ran away. i don't think you can turn off a mental link though i wouldn't personally know because i don't have one.

no their powers were to do whatever they felt like create destroy, but as a wise and intellectual race creation is good. though i doubt that if an elf could alter it's form to become better at fighting it would not do so, because it would have adapted to fighting in its current form.

you are better off making him some other creature that was a servant of the old ones if you do that then your story is better but aslong as you keep it an old one then the story won't stand

If they could do all that then they wouldn't have had to flee from chaos, since they could simply turn back time and create earthquakes and thunder and whatnot to destroy any threat. But, they didn't, since they couldn't, and therefore they needed a protector.
Why not saurus-ish? Because Sauruses are flawed. They are slow, and hunchbacked. A Angel-like body would enable him to move more freely, and quicker.

See? You say yourself that the Old ones were not invincible. ergo, they might need someone to protect their retreat, if nothing else.
Why they would want revenge? because this is what they do, what they dedicate their entrire lives to, and then chaos threatens to turn it to rubble in mere days. Of course they get mad.

If they could create mental links then they probably could turn them off, or at least block them. I don't "know" either, but this is not about knowing, just making sense. and both of us can do that.

Again, why oh why didn't they destroy chaos then? Because they couldn't. And the difference between elves and Old ones is that Elves are already shaped to handle combat well, while Old ones, as you said, resembled the slann, or lizardmen at least. This form is not exaxtly optimal for fighting, for reasons I have already mentioned. Therefore, it still makes sense for Our guy to alter his body, then start the practicing.

Actually that would just create other problems, such as Why did they only make one and alll that. Plus, that makes the angels a second-hand creation, so to speak.
What I mean is that they were not created by the old ones, but by a creature who was created by the old ones.

Who voted for the new way? I vote that you, whoever you are, even if I accidentally clicked the wrong one, which I do not believe that I did, as well as the new way, be dipped into a vat of bubbling cheese.

shooty go away big kids are playing, and your not very bright.

They do have those powers but when chaos was unleashed there was a surge of chaotic energy, meaning a death sentience for any one who even tried magic (there was enough raw chaos energy to make a new moon).

well then you will be happy to know that there is a high possibility that they are all dead 2/3 of the theories say that chaos killed them, but one says that they left the planet to it's doom and left. Excuse me; I doubt their entire life was spent on that planet, especially when millennium is a mere blink of an eye to them. They spent about 10,000 years on that planet but to them it felt like maybe a year at most or 10 blinks.

i doubt you could turn off an inborn ability, also the slann would have known at least an old one was left behind, and why didn't that old one travel back to the Lizardmen cities.

you fail to see the point; chaos comes from the Aethyr and the Aethyr is the source of all magic in the warhammer world, the old ones were masters of magic, so to destroy chaos is to destroy their power source so they did the next best thing contain it into a controlled substance.
However, the Old ones would have don unto themselves what they did to all the other races, "evolve" to best benefit the entire race, they would not have altered one to make things better since they have "evolved" to be the best that they can ever be. they did not make a few elfs have more of an orc like physiology simply because they would need it to fight better, or give some dwarfs the ability to directly channel the Aethyr so they could cast magic.

now they can be created by the old ones, or come from the shards of a dying creature (as long as it is not an Old One), I just cannot have some story where they leave one behind to defend a useless planet, or he gets trapped (because if he did then, he most likely would have been possessed and killed himself or so much chaos just destroyed an orderly creature)

Exactly. They couldn't safely use their magics, and thus a protector, a warrior, who used sword and shield instead, would be the optimal defense, Yes?

You misunderstand me - I didn't mean they spent their entire lives on one planet, but that the only thing they do is travel from planet to planet and create life, and not just haphazardly, but they have a plan for it. They spend at least a few hundred if not thousand years with every planet, and while that might not me long for them, they still put a considerable amount of work into every one of their projects.

Since the Old ones created the slann, the link between them can't have been inborn on both sides, meaning the Old ones created it, and thus could probably maniplate it.
And without the link, the Slann would have no means of knowing that any old one(s) were left.
And he didn't travel to the cities because his duty was to direclty combat chaos, he didn't have time for anything else. Plus, he wouldn't want to draw more attention than necisary to the lizardmen, since they were the ones who, should the world actually survive the daemon-incursion, would see to it that the world proceeded acording to the plans of the Old ones.

On the contrary, that is my point. Since they, for various reasons, couldn't, or wouldn't use magic. Hence the need for a fighter, who didn't need magic.

Now it it you who miss the point; Every race that the Old ones created, or evolved, was made perfect for the purpose the Old ones intended. In the same way, the Old ones would have optimized tehmselves for the prupose they intended for themselves, which was patience and spellcasting. But since they realized that they would need someone who didn't rely on magic, who could protect them from foes against whom it would be unwise to use magic, they chose one amongst them who changed his body to be perhaps less suited for manipulating magics, but more suited for combat instead.

The Old ones were extremely inteligent, and very powerful. It would therefore be safe to assume that they would be able to resist demonic possession, and withstand the high concentration of chaos. Plus, they might have still seen possibilities to save the world, they might think their plan could still work out to satisfaction.


--The Dark Master

Look for the red.

actually one of those things did happen to the old ones, thats they the Lizardmen Codex says Quoting Codex "no one truly knows what happened to these supreme beings, even amongst the Slann. Some believe that they were instantly destroyed by the influx of chaotic energy, the ultimate antithesis of the highly ordered Old Ones. Others speculate that the Old Ones, divine, as they were, were dangerously vulnerable ans susceptible to the attentions of the daemons, and say that they were possessed and torn asunder. others believe that they realized that the world was doomed, and so abandoned it to its fate."

your missing the point, which is that the Old Ones kept things as a unified race all the same, what your are suggesting betrays their constant by mutating one figure, mabey they had a Warrior like servant like the Slann not in appearance though, but they would not mutate their own kind to be separate from their original race.

well thats unknown if the Old Ones created the Slann or not, the Slann Came from Other worlds with the Old Ones which was one of their Servants, opening the window for the possibility of a Warrior Servant to do what you said terminating the need of a Old One warping its appearance to fight without magic

well now they have a warrior person that is not an Old One, and that is my suggestion make Seraphall a servant of the Old Ones, it wont be second hand creation because the servants were not created by the Old Ones like the Elves, Dwarfs, or Sarus.

2 things in the fluff that needed to be changed for Cannon reasons
1)Warpstones don't come from chaos as portrayed in the Fluff they were brought here by the Old Ones.
2)the Overflow of chaos energy was stopped by the elves, who created a vortex, not Seraphall's death.

@Shooty
Chaos infested the world bu overflowing the gates and ripping though them but they are pretty much concentrated to that world alone, i doubt i could spread millions of miles to other planets it was more concentrated to the Warhammer world

Read again. Look for the Bold text.

Where did you read this? I have never heard anything sugesting that none of the old ones was different from the others.

Oh really? Let me quote the Lizardmen armybook for you: "There were five original spawnings of Slann created by the Old Ones after they arrived on the world, and none have been spawned since their departure."
The Old Ones created the Slann.

1) Warpstones pretty much are chaos. It is therefore likely that some would have come from the Realm of Chaos as well, even if the Old Ones brought some.
2)The only ones who can actually say what happened are the Slann, who tend to be rather quiet, and the elves, who are not known to be humble. It could therefore be possible that the elves, while playing some part in defeating chaos, did not do quite as much as they say, but took the credit since no-one else knew what had happened.

no but it is their appearing philosophy of how they work with the world, also I've been reading on the old ones, and i have been able to explain the Orcs (the orcs were never planned they were a parasitic race) the Old Ones seem to let nature run its course and let the Races of the world solve the problems.

actually the Slann did say that information came from the Lizardmen Codex, not the high elf one, so the high elf's actions stopped chaos.

Actually warpstones is all 8 winds combined in one stone but the magic is Dahr not Qhaysh magic, so it is still evil. also Realms of Sorcery says that the Old Ones brought warpstone to the world.

the Spawnings are like generations so there are 5 generations of Slann Spawned on the world. nontheless the Slan came to the world with the Old Ones "they journeyed to the world, bringing with them their servents and slave-races. Of these creatures, the most favored were the Slann." So the Slann did come from other worlds like the other Servents and slave-races.

The word, "seem" indicates that the subject is open to speculation, i.e. that it is possible that the Old Ones felt that it was necissary to act.

What the codex said was that the elves used a vortex-thingy to move the magic to the poles of the world. It is still possible that the angels helped beat the daemonic legions and, after the vortex-incident, built their containment-pylons.

You miss the point. Even if the Old ones brought warpstone to the world, it is still possible that additional warpstone could pour out of the realm of chaos

For all we know, that could simply mean that the Old Ones had created those Slann before coming to the wolrd, i.e. on another planet.

sorry scratch that the Old Ones did not interfere with the World (the only thing they did was create the other races) apparently the Slann were the ones who moved the earth, made the world's pond, moved the continents and so forth. the only thing the Old Ones did was create and educate the other races.

it does not pour out of the gates, for one it Was the gate, and it is formed when there is a concentration of Dahr magic (which is when the winds of chaos become stagnet).

I've compleatly gone off my original point which is that the Old Ones had servants beyond the Slann so one of those servants are warriors and now the Old Ones have those warriors who don't need magic, that you have so desperately wanted.

That's hardly fair. Dhar isn't "evil", and Qhaysh isn't "good", the nature of magic can be defined only by the intentions of its wielder. This is also assuming we can define an "evil" action and a "good" one anyway.

AoAlgebra :lol:

But the races, or the slann at least, acted on direct orders from the Old ones. They simply couldn't be bothered to do it all themselves. But if they thought that their minions couldn't have handled it, they would probably do it themselves. Which coould have been the case with the chaos incursion, they realized that the mortal races couldn't handle it by themselves, so Our guy stayed behind to help them.

Why does it not pour out of the gates? Warpstone is very chaosy, why could it not exist some quantities in the real of chaos?

The Old ones were supperior to their servants in every way, so an Old One reshaped for combat would not only be better than some servant-race, but also much more likely to survive against the daemonic onslaught as long as Our guy did.

nope, even when Dragons and the like devastated the world they had created (attacking settlements and so on), the Old Ones didn't stop them - it was a natural part of life. so even if their minions couldn't handle it they would not get involved, so an Old One would not stay behind to Fight off chaos.

it would not pour out of the gates but magic would flow out stagnate and crystallize into Warpstone. Warpstone is the only material that is in the Warp and the real world at the same time so it cannot be created in the warp.

they were only superior in their knowledge of technology and magic, physically is a different story. beyond that that is hardly a reason for them to mutate themselves. and you don't really know how long one of their servants would last in a fight so.

fine, the Dahr is really really bad, it mutates, psychologically destroys, and manifests all your dreams and creations. in fact if you use Dahr magic you might as well summon a deamon. no human can use True Dahr without going insane, or mutate. and warpstone that isn't refined is basically solidified Dahr. its so dangerous it might as well be called evil.

But in the long run, the dragons' attacks probably didn't endanger the Old ones' plan. The chaos invasion most certainly did, therefore they might deem it necissary to do something.

So maybe it crystalized as soon as it exited the gates then. This way it would look like it came from the portal, but in truth, it didn't.

All the more reason to alter their bodies then, to become more fit fot combat. And a servant would be less powerful, and would not last long on it's own. something god-like would be required to hold the daemons at bay for as long as He did. And before you say Slann: they were many, so they don't count. What we're talking about is one being, bannishing legions of daemons by himself.

Except the warping, destructive power of Chaos is anything but "natural" and was not in the Old Ones' plans anywhere.

And no human can channel Qhaysh without going insane or exploding. Humans can channel Dhar safely, and have been known to do so on several occasions. They're also capable of channelling True Dhar for a few seconds before they turn into a pile of mush. Only one human has ever even sensed Qhaysh, and Teclis laid down the law on that one straight away. And you say Dhar is the one that's dangerous enough to just call it evil?

AoAlgebra :lol:

actually chaos is natural as much as magic is, in the warhammer world.

AOA do you know what Dahr and Qhaysh are? Dahr is used in necromancy and in Chaos magic.

yes but you cannot judge the strength of an Old Slann, and you are assuming that a Old Slann would risk its life to protect a Doomed world. it is better to save yourself from future arguments and turn it into one of their servant races who would fight chaos no matter what since he has no orders and is working on self preservation.

actually Dragons and Orcs could be very devastating, but they did attempt to stop Chaos, untill it became appernt that they could not and either they made the gates collapse or they fled knowing that it was not worth dying to protect the world. though one source says that all the Old Slann died trying to stop chaos.

i'll give you that ok. also did you know that the chaos moon Morrslib is made from warpstone.

And you're assuming they wouldn't. There is no history of what happened to other worlds visited by the old ones, so assumptions are all we got.
And since the Slann were so powerful magic-users, then it would be no problem for them to make themselves fearsome fighters.

Devastating, perhaps, but not at such a scale that they endangered the Plan. Neither the dragons intended, or problably could, destroy the world,. Chaos would and could, so therefore it was a threat to the Plan and the planet.

An other agrument I just made up is that perhaps Our Old One was very fond of this world, and did whatever he could to protect it.

Yep ,I knew that. Read some story somewhere about a skaven who built a huge warplightningcanon and was going to fire at Morrslib, to make all the warpstone fall down to the planet. Fun story, that was...

--The Dark Master

Of course. I wouldn't have bothered to say anything about them otherwise. Both Dhar and Qhaysh are a mix of all the winds, although with Dhar you're forcing them together more than you are with Qhaysh. The exact mixture of the winds you're using varies depending on what you want to achieve. With Necromancy, for example, you would blend in more Shyish wind than Hysh or Ghyran. Qhaysh, however, is still the far more powerful, and thus dangerous, wind while Dhar is more volatile. Technically anyone using Dark Magic, Necromancy, or a Chaos lore should suffer miscasts more often, but that would be unfair ;)

AoAlgebra :lol:

well if you know what they are then you should understand why this is ture, simply because no human can reach the amount of mental preparedness to channel Qhaysh properly so it becomes Dahr in the process
Dahr is channels by pure will and strength, while Qhaysh is channeled through concentration and meditation.

yes proboly but you must remeber Chaos is their equil in power so, i doubt the Old Slann would risk their lives to defend one of many planets, that also applies to your other idea.

no i pretty much know they would not risk their lives for something as useless as a doomed world.

those silly skaven, well known in Warpstone but they always have half baked plans.

You doubt. Means you don't know. I doubt that they would be so quick to abandon their project, if they thought there was a chance it might still be saved.

Noone knows. Perhaps the world was not doomed in their eyes, perhaps it could still be useful to them.
Or perhaps most thought it was doomed, which is why only one stayed behind.


--The Dark Master

Irrelevant, and illogical. Qhaysh is still more dangerous and powerful, and wreaks more havoc than Dhar is ever capable of. And as I've said, humans can channel Dhar, so if Qhaysh did become Dhar when humans channelled it, there would be no problem, and much less danger.

AoAlgebra :lol:

:blink:
i seriously need to read the fluff again it seems

ps srry off topic

Okay, out of interest where did you guys get all this Dhar and Qhaysh stuff from? Mine guessing is Dark Elf book... but then again this is really in depth stuff. Lost and Dammed?

GS

5th Ed books, Liber Necris, Liber Chaotica, WFRP books are the best place, or so I've heard. I just have plenty of contacts (read: fluff freaks) to leech off ;). I've not found anything about it in any 6th or 7th Ed books.

AoAlgebra :lol:

for all magic fluff read it from Realms of sorcery, and the WFRP rule book, also Warhammer.net
Dahr is like an Oger's club, brutish and strong while Quaysh is like the arrow of an Elf, quick and precise.

ok Dahr is evil through the eyes of Morr, and Sigmar. both hating necromancy and Chaos.

they weren't so quick to abandon it they at first attempted to contain Chaos after they realized something was amiss. nevertheless they could not contain it and Chaos broke through realizing that they would not be able to fight chaos they fled the Doomed planet.

useful or not their enemy which was equal to them in strength was now freely roaming that planet so to avoid death they fled, any smart Old Slann would not have stayed around to die.

I'm still going to suggest it that you should simply make Seraphall a servant of the old ones instead of an old one.

That is why most of them fled. It is still possible that one stayed behind, for reasons mentioned earlier in this topic(trapped, refusing to give up, etc)

Equal. As in not superior. Hence it's possible that in a fight the Old Ones would have come out on top. Although most of the didn't realize this, or didn't want to take that risk, Our Guy perhaps did, and stayed and fought therefore.

And then there's always the option that Our Old One acted on his own, that he "disobeyed" the other old ones, stayed behind when the otheres left simply because he refused to leave the world to chaos.

I still don't like that idea, it would be much cooler if the first angels came from the shards of a fallen Old One.

I don't see why being created by a servant would make them an less cool.

After all a servant of the old ones beats everything else any day.......

Well, that's not true. The Slann, for examle, are servants of the Old Ones. I could name several things that beat them. And after the Slann it get's worse. The other lizardmen, for example, are beat by very very much.

Compare being created by a mortal being to being created by a God-like being. which is cooler? ^^


--The Dark Master

actually the slann are not the strongest of the Oldones' servants they are simply their favorite, because they are the best in the use of magic. so we can create another servant of the Oldones have them be the physically strongest and resilient to the warping effects of chaos. basically we can make Seraphall as strong as we want as long as he does not surpass the slann in magic (which would be the only restriction) which would not even affect us because we use magic differently.

if your reasoning for keeping Seraphall an Oldone because it is "cool" then stop arguing.