i just want to change the fluff to a more understandable solid fluff instead of the random changeable fluff

personally i like idea 3

While idea #3 seems like the best one, I dont quite like the idea of angels being a mortal race. At the very least I want them to be "half-demonish", i.e. that they are, to a degree at least, supernatural beings, putting them some well needed steps above humans, because that's what they would be if plain mortals: humans with mutations that somehow they were the only ones to get/be able to use.

That's just my oppinion though.

--The Dark Master

We are above humans hell we are far past mortal as in another post by RG he says that idea 3 has the angels being souls attached to an artificial body.

In that process we are special because we can never die, but we have more knowledge than another race for being nearly emotionless we dont fear death and are not quick to make err.

Creepy you refer to yourself as an Angel, I wonder if it's contagious.

Anyways the third option is rather enticing, mortal angels is not that attractive.

Instead I propse a blending of the two, something along the lines of this(I am very sorry if chronologically this makes no sense,):


In this Scenario, the angels are NOT Daemons. The Old Ones, in shaping life on the planet, also decided to create some measures to combat any unforseen threat that may ruin their plan for evolution. However when they had finished, instead of worshippfully adoring thier creators the angels fled into the warp(is this still the right word?). Once there they attempted to establish thier own kingdom among the deamons. Soon, however the deamons grew jealous of the Angels and sought to destroy them. All hope looked to be lost when thier arose a great hero among them called Seraphaal. He drove back the deamons, but at a great price. Seraphall himself was slain in the battle. His magnifecence and martyrdom changed Angel society forever. They swore an eternal vendetta agains all denizens of the warp, and said that they would see an end to all demon kind. They rose and so began a glorious crusade throughout the warp.

However the Angels were not entirely immune to the mutations of the warp, and soon the society acheived a completly new physioology to go with thier new morals. There cam a day however when the could sense the draining of chaos magic throught the warp. Hurrying to return to the realm of moratl befroe they were forever sealed inside, the Angels left warp space. Now they continue the eternal crusade......


Now as for your questions, in essence the waystone to wratih-being idea was necromancy(the adding of a soul to a foreign body). It is done by the adding of the trapped soul of an eldar being able to manipulate psychically the wraithbone around them.

As for the second, while it is possible that religion enters into it I doubt it. Most likely it is the fact that almost every fantasy game has some sort of angelic beings present in it.

Preferably i would like to stay out of the warp, its a really complicated subject.

but we should be immune to any kind of physical corruption from the warp because we have artificial bodies.

Edit:
here is a suggestion of mine version. The angels were once mortals but the old ones attempting to create a brand of emotionless warriors created these beings, which slept until they would be awaken by magic, when the gates collapsed the old ones ran away, leaving their sleeping warriors behind but because of the amount of raw chaos energy flowing through the world they came to life.

(here my story can branch 2 ways for emotions because chaos magic is based on it and how much there was that brought them to life they gained emotions, or because they were a prototype they naturally had emotions no matter what)

the angels in the start only fought to protect their island in the start but the arrival of a gigantic creature with vast powers lead them to fight the demons back to the gates, the angels named him Seraphall after their god (they actually thought he was their god) after fighting for days on end Seraphall died devastated the angels fled to their island swearing to wip out these demons for the murder of their god.

I still dont like calling it the warp. Until recently i always thought it was exclusively a 40k term.

So basically we want to totally rebrand the angel race? What is so wrong with the original concept?

GS

Yeah, that's the right word, but I'm not really sure why they would feel the need to flee into the Warp. And also, the Old Ones didn't intend to be worshipped. This was just an experiment to them. I'm not trying to shoot down your idea, I'm just highlighting some of the more important issues with it.

But it really has to be dealt with. Maybe not in detail, but the links between Angels and Chaos mean that the Warp is going to be relevant to some extent.

Do you mean they thought this creature was their god and called him Seraphaal, or that they called this creature Seraphaal, after some other being they thought was their god? Your wording here is confusing.
Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Angels wouldn't know what gods actually were, since the Elves and even some humans know.

Bah, n00b. :P No, since WHFB is older than 40k (AFAIK) it was originally a WHFB term, applied to 40k (even though the two worlds are completely unrelated, of course. :rolleyes: )

AoAlgebra :lol:

Yeah but still the word "Warp" is sparsley used to refer to the realm of chaos and daemons, as opposed in 40k where it is used constantly to refer to the other realm.

GS

the first one is what i am aiming for, they already had a god Seraphall and they believed that that creature was him manifested in the physical relm, they do know what gods are they believe that Seraphaal is their creator (should they have a pantheon of gods or not?)

well yes of course. but putting the angels in the warp is different than having them fight against demons that come from the warp.

So their god is Seraphaal, and they know how gods are created.
They believed this creature was an Avatar as such? Much like Ariel, Orion, and the Greater Daemons?
I just want some clarification on this stuff.

One god, IMO. Mainly because coming up with more requires more names and background :P

AoAlgebra :lol:

So we dont want Seraphall as an old one anymore?

GS

Yea thats my suggestion keep Seraphall as a god not an old one simply because why would old ones even bother to stay behind forced or not they would leave anyway they could they alter plenty of planets they aren't really attached to their creations.

Not an avatar; their actual god manifested in the physical realm, not born in a mortal body. They believe in him that all you need to make a god.

I don't mind a pantheon of gods i can make more gods up i just need names.

Okay. You talk about Seraphall as a deity rather than an old one fair enough, but then a few questions.

1. Is Seraphall from the warp?
2. What created the angels?
3. Do they still have this engraved duty onto their psyche to fight chaos?
4. What kind of power does Seraphall have the Angelic Race as it stands today?

GS

I.e. an avatar. Avatars are manifestations of their respective deity's power.

Erm, what? Could you rephrase that please?

I'd really rather we had just one god. Makes him more special. :) I also think that makes Angels the only race with just one god.

1. The god? Of course, all of them are. The avatar? No idea.
2. One of three things can explain any race's existence: They existed before the Old Ones, the Old Ones created them, or they are from the warp. Choose one.
3. I'unno.
4. I would say we should replace Sephiroth with Seraphaal, in terms of status, and quite possibly the whole self-sacrifice thing. Gets rid of the whole stupid name thing anyway.

AoAlgebra :lol:

@GS

no his origins are unknown in true history he is just a giant powerful creature who fought the demons when the gates collapsed.

the souls of the angels existed prior to the old ones as a lower race some time during the old one's inhabitation their entire race's souls were removed by the old ones and attached to artificial bodies as a test of some kind sot create a brand of warriors to travel with them as they altered planets.

yes, for they believe that their god was killed by chaos and their demon gods so they swore a revenge to exterminate all chaos.

can you rephrase it though i am pretty sure what you mean, Seraphall affects the angels by being their encouragement to fight the demons of chaos, and their god that unifies them all. Though now that power is waning due to the slight division between the 3 Grand Seraphim.

@AOA

in reality he is not an avatar but just some creature, but the angels seem him as an avatar

complicated answer both before the old ones and the old ones created them. basically their race (wingless) existed prior to the old ones. But the old ones made them into what they are today.

i say we keep the Sepheroth character for he shows the angels unity prior to the great transgression

P.s. i was pretty sure an avatar is a god born in a mortals body, very little difference though

Im not sure i like some of the ideas to be honest.

The idea behind Seraphaal seems kinda... not good. He existed, fought daemons and then dies? Why was he the Angelic deity? If he came from the warp this further confuses matters because that makes him as the same stuff as chaos.

I also dont like the idea that Angels predate the Old Ones... i makes them the original creatures on the planet effectively and so they would belive they had a right to inherit and control it, in fact making them anti old one.

What was so wrong with the old fluff anyway? I quite liked it.

GS

he never came from chaos i already established that, also hes not really a god just an extremely powerful creature who first fought with the angels to defend their home. After that act the angels came under the assumption that he was their god manifested in the material world (they didn't think he came from the warp)

um ya know that every race on the Warhammer world predated the old ones.

there is just something i don't like about the old fluff i don't like it also i don't fell like keeping an old one behind they are extraordinary beings that could wipe out the planet if they wanted to. (hell they can move planets)

I can accept that they would do it, but why would the Old Ones need some inferior race of warriors to travel with them?

But you can't kill a god, and they should be intelligent enough to realise this. Unless you mean avatar-Seraphaal?

Fair enough. But I'm refering to him as an avatar just to avoid the confusion between Seraphaal #1 and Seraphaal #2.

There's really no point. Seraphaal now takes the place as the great warrior amongst the angels. And besides, we can't have an angel named Sephiroth! Also, the "great transgression" is a bad idea. A really bad idea. The reasoning behind it disappears with the "crystal creation" story, and it links the angels to Christianity too much, something I'd prefer we avoided.

Because there are two Seraphaals. The god and the 'avatar'. All gods are from the warp (yes, all of them). The 'avatar' wasn't, that we know of.

Dragons and Dragon Ogres were fully evolved before the Old Ones arrived. Why not anyone else?

AoAlgebra :lol:

Okies, Dragons were around... Dragon Ogres? Surley you would need the Ogres there to have Dragon Ogres? (Ogres + Dragon = Dragon Ogre). Okay, they are not half breeds but still.

DA, you say that all the races were around before the old ones? Is that true? I know the dragons were, but apart from that the other races are refferd to as being "created".

I still dont like the idea behind this avatar Seraphall. If we introduce that we have to rewrite the entire Angelic Culture, no more city, no more big pit of souls (what was its name again?) etc.

It also makes the angels a lot more mundane in general.

Your comment on the power of the old ones confuses me... if they were so powerful why did they flee the planet from Chaos, they could just, as you said, wipe out the planet and start again.

GS

well remember for how much power the old ones have they cannot create races from scratch. by "created" they mean speed up the evolution process manually.

thats probably the worst negative so far our city's fluff wouldn't change, also we have yet to re write the fluff like we have been trying to do. we don't have much Angelic Culture also we wouldn't have to rewrite it all. as for the Void i don't care much for it but it can still exist with some alterations if you still want it GS.

our rules make us Mundane, also we are immortal beings.

so we need some fluff rewrites for the creation story, though most of it is easily changeable, the angels were made by the old ones for the same reason every other one was made.

most cases when i refer to their god i am referring to avatar-Seraphaal.

You still havent answerd one of the questions i hoped you would ;)

If the Old Ones are supremly powerful as you said (destroy planets etc) why would they flee from Chaos? Also if they were all powerful, why couldnt they create new races. Im going to have another read through the BRB and my Lizardmen army book and check to see if this accelerated evolution theory is cited.

GS

sorry over looked it

well they didn't flee from chaos they just vanished the Lizardmen rule book dosent specify what happened just they were destroyed or realized the planet was doomed and left.

and proof of the evolution of creatures

basicly the Old ones altered the primitive races. though if you want you can make them think that they are special, its what people do already.

you cannot create life from scratch thats basically an extent of mortal powers. why would they bother with a doomed planet they are greater superior they can do this act over and over again, they are like kids building sand castles they like them and protect them for a while but then when they realize it is futile they simply move on to make another.

So the Old Ones were kinda mortal deitys? So we are basically putting them as super human, but not on the level of the Ruinous powers? Right?

GS

well yes they were mortal they were not gods, they used a powerful combination of magic and science. they could move planetsbut only did things for reason.

sorry for DP

Is it safe to assume people are ok with these changes, no more questions or the such i am thinking about polling this idea but i want to be sure that there are not any questions.

Which version has been decided upon?

nether I've been thinking of a way to write up the changes i have suggested of a without causing confusion.

if you have a good version then send me it so we can vote.

meanwhile I'm back to thinking

Nahhhh unless someone else thinks mine is worth the time and effort to fix(like changing the whole worship the old ones things) and submit to vote, I have none.

i have a rough copy of my proposed new fluff, suggest ideas and fixes to make it better

The story of the angels is a twisted story of tragedy and heroism, long ago the old ones visited this world and brought with them immense changes and for all the other races were altered into the better but as the old ones saw the angels a special use for the angels. At the hands of the old ones the angels’ souls were separated from their mortal frames and fused with artificial shells to become their new bodies. As they slumbered in their new forms left aside by the old ones, evil begin to stir in the north and south and before any one could predict the gates collapsed unleashing chaos upon the world. As the mass amounts of raw magical energy was unleashed which stirred the angels in their slumber awakening them. As the angels awaken they were forced to quickly adapt to their new bodies and forced to battle the incursions, which begin to assault their home. As the angels fought their forces which awoken them they begin to be beaten back. As the fights continued, a giant creature who begin to be known as the avatar of Seraphall appeared and defeated the angel’s opponents, swearing their life to this god they followed him as he begin his crusade to the southern wastes to defeat chaos. They fought tirelessly for days on end until suddenly one day Speraphall lay slain upon the battle field, angered and lost the angels fled to their home island, where they swore revenge upon the death of their god, and to forever continue his crusade against the evils and taint of chaos.

so suggestions please.

Why did they remove the Angel's souls from their body? Why did they leave them dormant? These are the first two questions that come to my mind when I read this.

AoAlgebra :lol:

yea I've been thinking about the dormant thing, but the Necrons were left dormant, mabey there had to be a settling process for the fusion to take place we can come up with something.

as for why they did it. let me ask you this, why did the old ones Alter the planet, why did they alter the elves, humans, ogres, dwarfs, ect. we cannot understand the superior mindset of the old ones so it cannot be explained.

That would work, thought the Necrons went dormant because a plau of demons were eating up all the food.

Not Daemons, Enslavers. If youve played Halo, think flood.

GS

you mean the C'tan? the fusion had put the angels into a slumber like state, and they had to be awaken by magic. the oldones were preoccupied with other things after setting the angels in their slumber so they were left alone. the mass amount of raw chaos energy woke them from their slumber.

the attacks on chaos is called the Grand Crusade.

All Necrons followed the will of the C'tan and went to thier tombs to await new life. They were awakene when life meeting teh requirments entered a tomb.

Enslavers are a species of Daemon, so yes technically we are both right. You get the more specific(and therefor more accurate) award though.

In 40K(my specialty reeally), the Eldar and Orks were made by the Old Ones to combat the Necrons. Perhaps(GW being repeptitive), there is a reason along the same lines, for the creation of races in Fantasy?

The Angels could easily fit into that slot if so.....

well the only reason for creation i have ever heard explaining the oldones was "because they can".

I wouldnt say that exactly DA to be honest. "Because they can" from our point of view, Alien intellect probably far superior to anything in the Warhammer world cannot be comrpehended. Im sure they "had reasons" but they just probably couldnt be fathomed.

Having the Angels created in response to Chaos is a bit seems a bit stealy (from 40k). Plus they must have created them fairly fast. Remember chaos inscursion timescale, the moment the gates collapsed Old ones disappeard... now that i think about it were the Old ones even present during the daemon assault? Did it not start after the gates collapsed and therefore (technically) post Old Ones departure?


GS

you cant have them created to combat chaos, there was no time zone for that to happen, a race in a matter of seconds is silly. and creating them prior to fight off unforeseen events is silly as well, come on they could trun a dragon into their own plaything.

but they were created by the old ones and that would be the end of it, we will leave it open ended for people to imagen up their own reasons, ha?