Now i figure that i would just through this out there and see what yall think about it.

I got to thinking one day (witch is very very dificult for me to do, but i did it) why is there not a posibility for a high two dart out its just as hard as a three dart out because you still need to hit a triple and double.

Now if this could or does take effect it needs a out that is two darts and is high enough that requires a high enough tripple to make difficulty high. Then you would have to determine how many top darter points to give for the two dart out. I looked at the points that you get for high out and it is three, this two dart out could be worth one or two points in my opinion.(but is my opinion worth anything?)

Give some feed back let us know what you think and maybee a high two dart out that you should be the minimum for getting the points. Put some thought into it and let us know.

Spungebob,

As an add on to what you proposed I really believe that there should be a lot more write ups that darters could earn, especially for those of us down in sapphire. If you look at the Ashtabula league, darters receive write ups for a whole lot more things (ex: 3bulls in a turn, 4 bulls in a turn, scores over 120, etc...). I think that it would be a simple thing we could do to continue to generate interest for us newbees and casual darters. In most sapphire matches it's rare to see a ton 40 or three and four bulls in a turn. It would be nice to see those accomplishments recognized, even though they may be business as usual for diamond players.

Ian

Ian, I agree with you about more possible ways for the begining darters. Thats one of the many reasons that i proposed this idea. One of the things with this idea is that it can be modified to the differant devisions. possibly for Dimond it would be trip 17, 18, 19, or 20 combined with the double bull. for Emerald it could be that pluss same trips with double 20. and for Saphire it could be all thoughs and add trip 15, and 16, with the addition of double 17, 18, 19. thoughs were my thoughts on how it could be converted to all of the differant levels of darters that this awsome leage has.

It would make top darter race a differant story if it turned out the way i think it would.

But its only a idea. Everyones seen were most ideas go. NO A DAMN PLACE!

We need to try it at least.

Maybe some on can speak to that. If the sapphire darters wanted to change how write ups are given out, how do we go about doing that? Do I have to write up a proposal and submit it to the office? Do I have to attend a board meeting? What is the process for someone making that type of change?

Ian, your best bet for changing the writeups is to bring your ideas to the board. They are the decision makers for the league. I would take into account that you don't want to "cheapen" the write ups. they can't be too easy to achieve. adding a couple saphire or emerald only write ups sounds like a good idea, please follow up on it.

spiderman, I agree with you about "cheapen" up the write ups. But if you look at how difficult the two dart write ups for the differant divisions i think it would be a possibility that it could be implimented. but the only division that would be the one to modify would be the Saphire sugested idea but i think the other two divion sugestions seem difficult enogh to be a great possibility. Don't you?

I would agree to maybe a 2 dart write up for 80-100 2 dart outs and any of the 2 dart outs from 110 down. I would think the points could be the same for all divisions.

What you say is a valid point but how would you break it down into the divisions. You said the points would be the same, but some of thoughs outs in the catigory that you put in are more commin in some of the higher divisions. bringing things into perspective is see some of the two dart outs like 80, 82, 83, 86, 88, 90, and 92 hit on a more consistant bases in the dimond division, but they are more less likely to leave themselfs or a teamate in the situation of having that out possibility in most games. When they are left the seem to get hit more often.

if you made the 2 dart outs from 80 -100 1 top darter point and 101-110 2 points for all divisions this would seem to be fair. making it more points for lower divisions would lesson the other mentions.

Not a bad idea. That would make people happy and probibly make the top darter race a more interesting race to keep track of.

It could posibily lend a helping hand to me. seeing that i'm always a dart or two off of most write ups. :angry:

To just make a brief point, you do not want to make the mentions take away from the game itself. Personally, I'm not going to change the way I shoot for 81 with 3 darts in my hand (I start at the bull) just to get a mention. Also, what happens if you have 101 left, and you you hit the single 19, then take out 82 in 2 darts? 101 doesn't fall into the 3-dart high out (and probably shouldn't), and technically, you didn't take out 82, you took out 101. Or, what if you hit the triple 19, leave yourself 44, and take that out in 2 darts? I've brought this up in the past with the 180's and 171's:

If I have 213 left and hit the triple 20 with my first 2 darts, I'm shooting at the triple 19 with my third dart because 177 leaves me 36, instead of wasting a dart to get even before shooting for the double, I can go and start at the double. I don't get the mention for it, but I'll take the improved shot at winning the game over the mention.

I don't have a problem with adding mentions, but I don't know how much that would help. A few of us have discussed this in the past, and we didn't even know what the mentions were or what points were awarded, or what the Top Darter really meant. We were happy to get the win and realized when we played a really good game. It took me a year to find out, and that was only because I'm a stat geek who loves to track that kind of stuff. Most guys it took longer than that to realize.

And to further complicate things.

112 left...

single 20
trip 20
double 16...

Do you get a high 3 dart out and a high 2 dart out?

Just playing devil's advocate...

Well done, Tony! My mentality is rubbing off on people!

Lets not get stupid with the three dart try that turns into a two dart out. if you have one dart left in your hand after the out congrats you win and you got a two dart out mention. I for one would like to give it a shot during the summer session. You guys are in diamond 1, try to keep track of the 2 dart outs from 100 up(Hell every team is at The Players Club)(that was sarcastic if you didn't know from the tone in my voice). I was in Diamond for the first time and I don't recall any 2 dart outs 100 plus. I actually took out 100 last Thurs. with two darts, first time in 4 years since I've been shooting. I think it's rare enough to warrant a mention. maybe the 80 to 100 2 dart outs would be for the emerald and saphire divisions.

Don't take it the wrong way, guys, I don't think anyone is trying to belittle your cause, it's just making sure you cover all angles.

Dboy

Wow, Danny, was that supposed to be a compliment? I'll be in the nearest PSYCH WARD if anyone needs me.

You'll find it that and many others in my new book, "The Boyce Way to Be Politely Insulting."

I would like to point out that for a lot of people the whole not keeping track of mentions and not knowing who was top darter until you got the trophy is no longer the norm for most teams. The guys on my team ask me to print out the sheets every week so they can see where they are in the standings and I know in the few seasons where I've been towards the top, people from other teams have said things to me about it. Maybe its one of the wonders of the internet, but even down in lowly saphire 6 it matters to a lot of folks.

Danny, I can't wait to get my hands on that, When I insult someone it's generally not very polite.

Ian, I agree that it is watched more carefully.

I also feel (and I know I'll catch flack for this) that there are 2 reasons I improved from playing in low emerald in 93 to playing (like I should be in Low emerald) in D1 now.

1 is that I was never happy with how I was throwing. Even after a good game, I always look for a way I could have done better. I did not try to create new ways to make myself look better on paper, because having more top darter points doen't make a difference when you are playing Todd's team. If someone doesn't have enough confidence in themselves to not only think they can compete, but also that competing at a higher lever will make them better, no amount of Top Darter points is going to give them that confidence.

2nd is I went to every Trails, Tournament, Qualifier, and pick up game in a bar I could get to. The best way to improve is to play more, and the better competition the faster you will improve (or at least you'll have great "wow did I get my ass kicked last night" stories).

Anyway the point of all this rambling is that finding new ways to reward mediocrity is why this country has a hard time competing in anything anymore. If you want more top darter points, throw a few more 117 outs like you did last week.

Tell me this, if you hit that in league and it was 3 out of your 40 TD points you had because every time you throw 3 decent darts you got a mention, would it mean as much?

Well now that I wrote a new chapter for Danny's new book I just want to say none of this was meant to be insulting. If it was, sorry!

Tony I agree that playing better comp makes you better. But the 2 dart outs above 100 all include hitting a trip then a double bull. I don't think thats a mention to make anybody "feel" better about their dart game. I also don't think it would dumb down the game. tell me if you hit trip 18 DB(104) with a dart still in hand, you don't think that's worth 2 points?

That one I sort of agree with, but I have a feeling you are going to have a lot of misunderstanding about it... someone has 105 left... hits a 1 then t 18 d bull and I guarantee they are taking the 2 dart write up. It will just be an argument that doesn't need to happen. I'm not saying I'm against it... I just thinki it might be a pain. It was the others... 3 bulls in a turn... the lower mentions that I think are a mistake. I've heard some horror stories of players in Ashtabula starting EVERY turn on bulls in cricket... just trying to get 3. They didn't shoot anything else until they missed the bull with a dart and finished the turn closing numbers or when the other player closed them.

I see your point, I guess we would have to spell it out( reeeaaal sloooow- De De De). You take it out with your first 2 darts or it doesn't count. I think you can also have a few lower 2 dart outs for Emerald and Saphire without cheapening( is that a word?) the TD points. As far as people just going for the mentions you were talking about, thats just stupid darts and I'd love to play someone like that as i'm sure you would too. I have a hard enough playing smart darts without shooting stupid on purpose ( yes thats a softball hit it out of the park) I think we should give it a trial run during the summer where there are less teams and see how it works. this will also give us a couple of months to get the mentions in writing.

Please understand that We're not trying to discourage anyone or anyone's ideas. The biggest reason I put the post to see what other darters were thinking.

I don't have a problem with changing mentions or adding them. I personally feel that the low games should be numbers that permit a player to complete them in a full turn. For example, a mention for 301 in diamond is 13 darts. I think it should be either 15 or 12. A mention in singles cricket is 23 darts, 22 for doubles. I personally think they should both be 24 or move them back to 21. A mention in the team 801 is 32 darts, why not just make it 33 or 36?

I realize that people look at the top darter stats a lot more closely than they did when I started. I'm actually looking into it a little closer in Diamond 1 this half, just because I can't leave well enough alone when it comes to numbers, and in listening to what we've got here, it might not be well enough. If anyone is willing to aid me, let me know.

Dboy

you bring up a good point. Does anyone know how the numbers for the mentions were originally determined? don't worry about discouraging me, i've got my dart game covering that.

Spidey, the only changes that I remember since 2001 were adding the team cricket (which I personally didn't and still don't like, but oh well), adding a team killer during the summer (which was confusing for everyone involved at the time. The lesson: attend the captains' meeting), adding Burma Road as a singles option instead of 501 during the summer, and raising the low cricket games 1 and 2 darts for singles and doubles respectively. We can certainly ask around.

While I understand that adding mentions isn't going to necessarily make better darters, I think it's important to keep in mind why we have mentions in the first place. They are designed to recognize individual accomplishments and create an extra level of competition between individual darters. The drive behind my argument is that accomplishments look different at different levels and our mentions should reflect that. It has never made since to me that a magical ton 80 is worth 4pts., but a ton 40 is worthless. For a sapphire darter a ton 40 is still quite an accomplishment. Or, take the cricket trips mention for instance. I saw a guy hit cricket trips (and I've only seen it once in 5 sapphire seasons) and my captain didn't want to give it to him because he already had one mark. If we had mentions for 7 or 8 cricket marks in a turn this frustrating turn of events wouldn't take place. I think a lot of darters in diamond forget what sapphire is really like, especially down at the bottom in Sapphire 6 where I shoot. Mentions can become so few and far between that they lose all meaning. There was only one mention on my team all season this fall, and I don't recall any of the visiting teams having mentions against us. When they're that infrequent, what's the point in having them. I would also like to point out that my desire to change the mentions is only at the sapphire level. If you look at some of our neighboring leagues, Ashtabula and Akron-Canton for example, they have considerably more mentions then we do. What harm would be caused by following suit at out lower levels?

If a person was, say a math teacher, and his students' grades were not as high as they could be, would he lower his grading scale to make the students feel better about themselves? ;)

Ian,

One thing you can do is see what happens with your team this half. The spreadsheet on the LEDA website (developed by yours truly :) ) has several sheets in there to track whatever it is that you like. What I'm working on right now for this coming half is developing a different scoring system, based on not only mentions, but also won-lost records and how many points you earned for your team, and comparing them to the other players in that division that season.

I completely understand your reasoning. All I'm trying to do is make sure that all the bases are covered. When you look at the mentions as far as low dart games, they tend to make sense (a low 301 in diamond requires a 3-dart average of 69.46; a low cricket basically means that you can't miss a dart; a low 501 requires an average of 71.57, a low 801 requires an average of 75.09). I personally feel that the individual mentions are OK, but I'll never leave well enough alone. I think that a 112 in or out is good (requires at least 1 triple and all 3 darts, a nice accomplishment), cricket trips are self explanatory, and the 3-double bulls are obviously a tough one, but I don't have a problem with that.

In my opinion, part of the reason there aren't that many high outs hit (especially in the lower divisions) is because no one thinks about the out until they actually hit the triple 20 and then it's, "Oh s#$%, now what do I hit?" I can't say this with any certainty, though.

I personally feel that the 180 or 171 rule should be changed, but I haven't had much support for it. To me, a 174 from 206 or 214, a 177 from 209 or 217, or even a 170 from 202 or 210, or any of those shots at any time, is just as impressive as a 180 or a 171, maybe moreso, since you have to change your shot. Just my thought, though.

That's why we have special ed. Mike :)

In a new study, it doesn't seem like the Diamond teams are really taking full advantage of the extra games to gain mentions. I took all of the Top Darter stats from the web site and computed the following numbers.

1. 664 different players from all 16 divisions accumulated at least 1 top darter point.

2. They accumulated a total of 5360 points.

3. Taking out the minimum number of singles wins (this assumes that every singles match in Diamonds 1-4 goes at only 2 games and there are no forfeits all season), 4000 of those points are accumulated by by winning a singles leg, leaving 1360 points from mentions.

I took the time over lunch to break the points down by division, then figure out the number of teams in each division and the number of weeks played. A division with 7 teams will most likely accumulate fewer points because 2 fewer matches are played by each team. Here is how the table came out:

Div MP Teams Wks/Tm Pts/Week Pts/Wk/Tm
D1 452 8 14 32.29 4.04
D2 202 8 14 14.43 1.80
D3 131 7 12 10.92 1.56
D4 106 8 14 7.57 0.95
E1 13 8 14 0.93 0.12
E2 51 7 12 4.25 0.61
E3 40 8 14 2.86 0.36
E4 68 8 14 4.86 0.61
E5 44 7 12 3.67 0.52
E6 13 8 14 0.93 0.12
S1 69 8 14 4.93 0.62
S2 37 7 12 3.08 0.44
S3 52 8 14 3.71 0.46
S4 67 8 14 4.79 0.60
S5 4 8 14 0.29 0.04
S6 11 7 12 0.92 0.13

Basically, on average the only difference between a Diamond 1 team and a Sapphire 6 team is a 180, or a couple of high ins. It might seem significant, but when you factor in that a Diamond team is playing at least 4 more games (and as many as 16), 1-2 mentions is hardly significant. Please also notice that there is not any great correlation between division and points earned as a whole. Emerald 1 earned as many as Emerald 6, and was destroyed by Emerald 4.

Man I love numbers.

Dboy

Does anyone want to chip in for the dboy cause? Danny really needs it!!!! We can get a cheap one downtown. I'm sure it won't take long.

Dboy you just made my head explode again.

I appreciate the support, everyone. I always wanted a something named after me, and now it seems that I have achieved that.

And if you think that's bad, wait until I start crunching numbers this winter.

And I probably should have added that 74.6% of the top darter points accumulated (minimum) were from singles wins.

great dboy, now your answering yourself.

I have found that I have some of my best conservations in my living room with no one else around. The arguments are just that much more interesting.

danny if you keep telling people that you have complete conversations with your self i might have to try committed to the mental institution for your own good :ph43r:

Huh?

To further prove the point that I have issues (not that any more proof is needed), here is a stat that I have developed (though it's still a work in progress):

I call it a player rating, and it's based on several components (I'll even include a real life sample. You can thank me later):

1. Showing up. If you're there to play, you are adding value to your team (unless your last name is Samolis - Ha Ha), and if you're not there, then you are not contributing. The first part is simply the number of weeks a player has played divided by the number of weeks the team has played. Player A has played in 5 out of a possible 6 weeks, so 5/6 = .8333 (I'll only go 4 decimal places, for simplicity).

2. Mentions. As opposed to counting assigning points and using it as a "counting stat" (think Touchdowns, Homeruns, Points, Goals, etc), I base it on mentions per leg played and make it a "rate stat" (Percentage). Considering that Diamond division teams play 2 out of 3 for singles, and in Diamond 1 you have to play 2 out of 3 in doubles matches, I factor in every leg, so if you play 3 games in singles, 2 games in a doubles match, 3 in another doubles, and 1 team game, that's 9 total legs, as opposed to 4 games in Emerald of Sapphire. Part 2 is simply mentions divided by legs played. Player A has 4 mentions in 42 legs, so 4/42 = .0952.

3. Total Points. This is the total match points that a player has won for a particular team. A singles match win is worth 1 point, doubles is .50, and a team win is .25. It is actually a percentage of the total points won out of the number of possible points won. Player A won 9.00 points out of a possible 11.50 points, so 9.00/11.50 = .7826.

4. Winning Percentage. This is based on the total legs played. Sometimes in the Emerald and Sapphire divisions, it will be the same as the total point percentage, but not most of the time (1.00/1.50 [1 singles, 1 doubles] is .6667, but 1/2 is .5000). Winning a match in 2 straight is obviously better than winning in 3 (though the win matters most, hence part 3), so the total legs played is factored. Player A has won 30 out of a possible 42 legs, so 30/42 = .7143.

5. Next, you add together parts 2, 3, and 4. .0952 + .7826 + .7143 = 1.5921

6. Next, take the part 1 and subtract it from 1. 1 - .8333 = .1667

7. Subtract part 6 from part 5. 1.5921 - .1667 = 1.4255

8. That part 7, divide it by 2 then multiply by 100. 1.4255/2 = .7127; .7127 x 100 = 71.27. Player A's rating would be 71.27. It works out so that if a player wins 50% of legs and 50% of the total points, plays every week, and doesn't get any mentions, the rating would be 50.00.

Obviously, there are pros and cons to this system, and the system is only 6 weeks old. But here's what I've noticed:

1. The numbers are relative only to the individual's division. I like it because it says that if you rate at a 75.50 in your division, then you were clearly one of the better players. For example, the average rating in D1 is 53.40.

2. It rewards for mentions, but not too drastically. You can have a 180, lose the match, and receive more points than the person that wins the match. This system rewards the winner more than the guy who mentions, but still rewards the guy who mentions.

3. I haven't figured out exactly how to differentiate a strong doubles team or a team with 1 really strong player and a really bad player. Give me time.

4. It can take a lot of time to figure out if you don't have it set up in a spreadsheet or database.

5. Overall it's basically irrelevant, but I have a lot of fun with it.