This is something that has ben on my mind and some others. Would it be a good or bad idea to take top two top darts from a division to the top darter turniment?

I was thinking since some of the top darters in the divison only have a few points seperating first and second. What if they were to impliment some sort of thing to make it that if there is a few point differance like 1-4 points that the top two could compiet. now i know that this might be difficult to orginize because not every division has that close of a race for top darter. It hapens mostly in some of the higher divisions.

The way it is now if there were to be a tie only if you beat the guy/girl you beat in the tie breaker you can move on to the top darter challenge. WHY? Can't it be made that they both get there. They both got top darter, they both got the most points! Thats just not fair. If you are in the top darter challenge you play a round robin, that way if you have a bad match you still have a chance to make it up against the next guy. In the play off if you have a bad match your OUT.

<MAKE IT FAIR PLEASE>

The only thing about taking the top two - is that it kinda takes away the accomplishment of what the 1st place guy did. It is a big deal (to me at least)
to win top darter in a division. (I really do not need to worry, my goal is not to win Top Darter - it is NOT to be last in Top Darter in my division)

I remember a few of us (not on the board at the time) were discussion ideas like taking the top 4 in each division, then playing it out in an NCAA tournament type format. Seed them accordingly (16 divisions, to the 1st place players get the top 16 seeds, ect.), then play it out that way in round robin, single elimination format, even schedule it for a couple of Wednesdays since that's league night and everyone seems to have that in their mentality. I don't know if it would work or not, but it was just another idea.

maybee what dboy said could be something to try out with the top darters of the winter half. have it happen on one of the wendsdays following the compleation of the winter league just as a way of trying it out, but still have the original top darter turniment to decide top darter. But ask the top 4 of each division and see if they are up for it as a practice round they might just do it for fun.

It dosn't hurt to try things. You could never anticipate the turn of events that can happen.

Heres my thoughts (for what there worth) I agree with Dianna that it would take away from the achievment of being #1 in your division. I think being the only one from your division, no matter what division that is, is a real accomplishment. Taking more then one ( unless there is a tie) would diminish the title of Top Darter. I'd invite everyone to come to Lino's on January 12 to watch all the Top Darters. It is a great day of great darts.

Now this is one of the things i can teader todder eather way on how this is done in the league. but i thought that some of thoughs guys that made a great attempt at top darter but just missed by a couple of points by missing a few weeks or are paird up with a teamate that has a bad night at darts can inhibit there performence in the doubles but the guys who have the pairing that is a dimatic differance that that other guy can make the differance in the dop darter becouse that way of earning points just is not the single darter making the points it a group thing not a indipendent accomplishment. Thats why i made the suggestion.

Think about that. Then let me know what you think about that.

Good point about the top darter getting points from doubles matches. I often thought that these points should not be included in the indivdual top darter scoring. don't know if it would be to hard to figure out, but maybe we should look into doubles top darters. I know you don't always shoot with the same partner, but if you took the top 2 doubles teams from each divsion and played a Doubles Top Darter Tournament. I know Dboy is salivating at trying to figure this one out.

I think you are right that dboy is stuned and maybee confused about this thing you speek of. But if you try to figure out the top doubles partners you could run into many ties for the top spot. The way i look at it you would have to take the doubles and team points for a individual put into a differant set of points. then take the top two of that set of points and make them the doubles team from the division that they are in.

Now that is a possible way of that being done. but then you would have to see how that might possibly be keept track of. maybee a second set of points on the top darter sheet, or maybee a number next to the darters name that indicates there possition in the doubles top darter. But if you just did possition most of the people would want to know how many points they are behind so thats a bad idea.

This might be a good idea for the doubles thing, or a horendis hidious thought that we all wish will go away.

I think that a doubles top darter is a cool idea, but there will have to be alot of discussion on how to figure points out. I still would like to see points from doubles and team games not included in the individual top darter point totals. don't know what to do with the points, but they would still be mentions.

I disagree with taking those points out. In a lot of cases, I would go as far as MOST of the cases, it's the guy in the running for top darter doing a lot of the work in a doubles mention game. I know I leached a few points off of Dobish this season. Because he had to drag me along for the ride does that make his accomplishment less noteworthy, or more? Then you would also have to take away the high ins and high outs from the doubles games, these are still very individual accomplishments. I don't see any problem with how things are done now, although I would like to see the top 2 from each division go, even if the first place guys play in one bracket and the second place guys play in another and it stops there. Even hold a tournament for the #s 2- 5 from each division. I would also like to see some kind of prize (money) to the winners of each division. even if it's $20 it would be cool.

Tony i see your point with the high ins and outs and even ton 80s in doubles and team games. I think you could include those in top darter but not the low game points. Those points could go toward a doubles top darter standings. I know this would effect how you team partners up. I know on our team we don't play with the same partner from week to week, thus it would be hard to get enough points to qualify. what if you had each team submit a doubles team and had a tournament for each division?

Tony,When i said the doubles points i never ment the high in's or high out's even ton 80's. I just ment low dart games thus the "doubles points"...

spiderman, You bring up a interesting idea about a team submits a doubles team and each sub-division would battle it out to determine a doubles champ. If this were to be done would it be a round robbin turniment in all the sub-divisions?

yes i think you would run a 5 game round robin just like singles. then have the top three play off.

What about the 8 teams produced by each divison #? Would that be a round robin?

WOW! good point. Maybe the divisional playoffs should be a double elimination, then the winners would play round robin. this would probably take two different sessions. I think this should really be looked into. sounds like alot of fun. anybody else have opinions?

How about we take the winners from both fall and winter and have a doubles top darter tourney...

spiderman, I belive that it would have to be a two session thing only because of time issues. The double elimination turny is a great idea.

Quinn, if we were to do both fall and winter we might run into a problem. What if there was a doubles team that wins both fall and winter turnys or if one person is on two differant teams and wins both times. I know it's highly unlikly but "what if". that would be the problem with that idea.

Hell, I'll open up the pandora's box: What if 2 of the top doubles teams are on the same team and have one common player? That would make things troublesome. I like the idea of doubles, but it could also be a logistictal nightmare.

I believe that the biggest reason Diamond 1 top darter points are usually higher than most other divisions is because of the doubles points. If you are on Todd's team, not only are you a great darter, you are guaranteed of having a great doubles partner. No other team in LEDA can say that. That's why 4 of the top 10 in points are on Todd's team. Individually they are great. As a team they are better. I had 8 low dart doubles/team mentions this year. Each of my 4 teammates was part of at least 1 of the mentions. Tony and I were both hot in getting a pair of doubles 501 mentions in one match. Dan and I threw a pair of great doubles cricket games against Todd's team. Chris and Mike each "carried me" in the doubles mentions I had with them. I think if you separate the doubles points from individual points, the results would be nearly the same in the end- just scaled down. Although, in the lower divisions, the points probably do reflect more individual talent.

Plus, the most important point is if Dan Boyce calls something a "logistical nightmare" you better believe it would be. If he thinks it would be difficult to arrange the stats for a top darter doubles team, I believe him.

Mike, I appreciate the complete faith you have in me. You are right, though, I've considered just about every possible angle, and I just see too many issues.

The fact of the matter is that there is no perfect system. I had someone ask me to develop one for ranking players, not just in top darter points, but in all aspects (like winning percentage, for example), and while thinking about it, the problems are just too great to figure out. I keep a lot of numbers, and to determine what they wanted was too much to ask from everyone else. The spreadsheet on the website automatically keeps track of winning percentages, total points won by each player, etc, just by entering last names and W or L on the Game-by-game sheet. But it doesn't factor in things like:

1. What does [fill in the blank] average in a game of cricket (3-count, 7-count, etc.)

2. What's [fill in the blank]'s 3-dart average in x01 games?

3. If [fill in the blank] goes up there with a 2-dart out, how often do they hit it?

4. How much do they contribute in doubles and team matches?
a. Do they carry the brunt of the load?
b. Do their teammates carry it?

5. If they have a 3-dart finish in cricket, do they tend to finish it?

6. How well do they play when they're trailing?
a. Do they fold like a lawn chair? <-- I love that phrase from the commercial
b. Do they make a game out of it?
c. Do they win from time to time?
d. What happens if they lose the first of a 2 out of 3?

That's just the beginning. I haven't even factored in quality of opponents yet, and frankly, It's a challenge to figure out how. If teams took the time to track this stuff, I could definitely figure something out.

I would gladly add these to the sheet, but I would never expect or ask anyone to do that. I've tried it during summers, and unless you do track everything, you won't get a comprehensive picture (Gary Rice was the most impressive I've ever seen at the whole thing. Watching him write down every score for 2 doubles matches going at once was nothing short of phenominal.).

That's not to say that we can't change things up, I just want to make sure that we know what we're diving into.

I think that the team captain would have to pick the best team,this is were the submit would come into play. You only get one doubles team from each team. may piss somebody off, but thats the team captains problem. DBoy love the stats but let the teams fight over who makes the tourney.
Mike, do you think you would have won top darter without the doubles mentions? As you said Todds team players probably had just as many or more doubles mentions. don't you think this would pull them back to the pack if you took away their non individual doubles points? I'm only saying that top darter should be based on the indivual points.

I'm just saying how nightmarish it would be to develop for some people. I personally would love it, but then again, I'm single for a multitude of reasons, not the least is the fact that the first thing I do when I hear numbers is figure out what I can do with them.

How about a doubles tournament where the stipulation is that you must play on the same league night team and play it off that way?

I wouldn't have won without my doubles points. The system helped me get it. I realize I'm not the best individual darter in my division. It was a down year for Diamond 1. They usually have nearly 100 points. This year 65 won. Maybe it was the increased competition in the division.

The fact is that I had four different doubles teammates. Sometimes the best pairing "on paper" wasn't the right combination for winning. Our team of 5 players has 13 (check me Dan) different doubles teams. I guess the captain would have to submit a team that was playing well at the end of the season or keep stats himself all season to determine what was the best combination on his team.

I have a 2 word answer... Hell No... and also that I totally agree with Mike, the best team on paper is not always the better team. I've had a few situations in the last season where (and Mike will attest to this) I walked away laughing and shaking my head after a match because I couldn't believe player x and player y beat the team they were playing especially HOW they ended up winning.

Anyway, I tried to figure out a way to pull something like this off when I was TD but it just didn't make sense no matter how you put it. Even after that, you think the top darter tourney is usually lopsided toward the top of Diamond? Imagine now how bad it would be if you now have not only the best player on a team (where you could have a diamond in the rough in emerald or sapphire) but also the 2nd or 3rd best playing the top 2 from Todd's team, Lino's Team, or about any team from D1 through mid D2. The difference in talent will REALLY show at that point.

There may be 3 or 4 doubles combinations in all of d4- s6 that can even keep from getting embarrassed.

I think a better way of going about it might be to hold a doubles tourney before the LEDA Championships that is only open to teammates... that way you can pick your partner within your team and it might increase the turnout for the singles event. they would also only be playing others in their divisions until they get very deep in the tourny.

10 according to my count, Mike, but I get your point. Now you guys have me thinking about this all over again. I had a simple formula, which was something along the lines of (I don't think the multipliers are right, but close):

MP = mention points, SM = singles mention points, S = singles win points, TP = total match points, PP = total match points played, D = doubles wins, T = 4-man team wins, W = overall wins, L = overall losses, G = games played. TP = S + D/2 + T/4

Player rating = [(((MP-SM)/G)*.85) + (TP/PP) + ((W/G)*.9)]/3*100

Example (diamond x):
MP = 71
SM = 22
S = 10
D = 12
T = 12
TP = 19.00
PP = 28.25
W = 34
L = 17
G = 51
So:

Player rating = [(((71-22)/51)*.85) + (19.00/28.25) + (34/51)]/3*100
Player rating = 71.86

I might have had a cap on the mention points per game at 1.000 so that a perfect rating would be 100.00, but if a perfect QB rating is 158.3 (doesn't that just ring perfection?), why can't a perfect darter be higher than 100? I just used .85 because the most games you can play in a season is 84, and I figured 100 Top darter points would be high (minus singles), and inverted the figure to get the multiplier.

Please note that I am not responsible for any heads that happen to explode.

Dboy

the doubles top darter would be run the same as singles, you would only play your division ( saphire v saphire ) until your left with the final three, one from each division. As I mentioned earlier this would probably have to be a multi day process. 1st a double elim. to breakdown each division ( for example the 8 teams in S1 play double elim. to get the top S1 team and so on. then the top Saphire teams play round robin the next week to determine the top overall Saphire team. then the winners of each division play for the over all winner.) see it sounds so simple RIGHT????? your point about doing something before the LEDA champ. is another interesting idea. WOW! i'm exhausted

WOW glad i was typing while you were posti BOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!

dboy, If my head would have exploded my life would be so much easyer!

I can't begin to comprehend what ive started here. I mentions a little something and it's turned it a mathimatical nightmare because or danny. (i'm not complaining about you danny, dont take it the wrong way). I realy did not think it would come to this.

Over all everybody has a valid point. there are ways of doing things one way or the other, but sometimes things cant get agreed on so they never happen. Thats were i see this one going.

I know what the idea was. I was just throwing something out there that I have done in the past for my own team. The numbers were literally just off the top of my head, and I don't even know if I had the multiplier right (though I may have been close). Basically, I was rambling, which can be fun and frightening at the same time.

By the way, the other reason I threw that little mathematical jigsaw puzzle out there was because it is all data you can take right from the scoresheet. For baseball fans out there it's kind of like Bill James' Game Score, where you can quickly compute a pitcher's performance just from the box score in your local paper.

For those people logging in for the first time and have no idea who I am, I was once ticked at my teacher for allowing us to use calculators in class because I assumed that he thought I was dumb.

danny, calculators are for people like me. Borderline retarded but still just a compleat dumb ass. They also invented spell check for people like me. I know you will agree with that.

Oh by the way when are your spelling/gramer classes starting i realy need to sighn up for thoughs classes. Let me know please.

Good thing we are superficial people and love ya for your looks Bob.


By the way, for those that don't know me, I'm the a$$hole that will eventually be the second person banned from this forum, as well as all league functions besides league night itself... oh wait a minute...

well at least you collect those royalties from those movies. I think you know what i mean.

tony if you love me for my looks i am a little concerned about you. :unsure: I know you are aa$$hole but i dont think they will ban you from this site only because you can over turn that. I mean you are the creator arnt you? But think possitive you still play darts and like it when you are doing your worst witch is every night. :D

Oh and about thoughs movies, DO NOT TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!! I DONT WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!